Gergő Kereki: Welcome from Budapest, from the library of the Carmelite Monastery. Sitting next to me is the Prime Minister of Hungary, Viktor Orbán. Hello, welcome, and thank you for your hospitality.
Hello. Make yourselves at home!
Let’s get started! We’ve had an eventful week, and it’s still only Wednesday.
Oh, yes.
What’s been the highlight of the week for you so far? When Donald Trump called you a great man, a fantastic man, at the international peace summit in Egypt on Monday? Or yesterday, when Dominik Szoboszlai equalised against Portugal in the 94th minute, practically at the last moment?
The most important moment is always when most people are happy. I think most Hungarians were happiest last night in the 94th minute.
In a post after the match, you wrote that we belong in the World Cup. Is that realistic? Bearing in mind our performance over the past six months or a year, the five points we’ve earned so far in the group stage, or the fact that if we finish second in the group, there are still two rounds of playoffs . Is qualifying for the World Cup a realistic possibility?
It’s difficult to give an opinion on this without taking a risk, because everyone in Hungary understands this. I think that finishing second in the group is now highly likely – also according to the bookmakers. But then there are two more knockout rounds, which will be difficult, and anything can happen there.
Next up is the topic of diplomacy, war and peace. I’m talking to the Prime Minister on Wednesday, two days after the international peace summit in Egypt that ended the Palestinian–Israeli conflict in the Middle East. When did you learn that you’d be among those invited, and how does such an invitation take place in practice?
Saturday evening. First, I asked if I’d heard correctly. They said I had. It really was Saturday evening, and the summit would be held in Sharm el-Sheikh on Monday. So I said, “Okay, of course I’ll be there.”
And was the Prime Minister surprised by the invitation?
We were surprised that there would be this event. We knew that the American president would be going to the Knesset, the Israeli parliament, but we didn’t know that there would be a world summit somewhere in Egypt. So I wasn’t the only one to be suddenly pulled in, but the other leaders were as well. So these are complicated issues involving old grievances. It’s difficult to arrange for the American president to come from the Israeli parliament to a summit and sit down there and sign an agreement in the presence of the Turkish, Egyptian and Qatari leaders, thereby confirming the agreement that the Israelis signed with Hamas. That requires a very fortunate alignment of the stars; and I think that on Saturday evening the Americans thought that the stars would be aligned fortunately on Monday, and that this moment shouldn’t be missed. Such a negotiation process is very complicated. So the reality is nothing like what we think with our calm, Central European, slightly Germanic, minds. Especially when southern countries are involved in such a series of negotiations: everything changes at the last minute, they backtrack, move forward and set new conditions. So you need strong nerves, perseverance, clear goals, and you have to know how to keep the negotiations on track so that in the end you don’t end up with something different from what you wanted. This takes perseverance and humility. Because there will never be an agreement if you get offended when one of the negotiating parties changes their mind for the sixteenth time and goes home. So, surprising as it may seem, this success also required humility on the part of the American president. In the eyes of the world Donald Trump isn’t generally known for his humility, but, seeing up close how things work, I can safely say that this wouldn’t have been possible without the humility of the Americans, their humility in service.
I’ll ask about President Trump in a moment. But first, as with every international event, this one also immediately took on domestic political significance. The majority of the public clearly considers the Prime Minister’s invitation to this summit to be a diplomatic success. After two or three days of silence, the opposition’s opinion has also arrived. They don’t know what to make of this invitation.
Yes, it’s not that simple for them, but they’re far removed from the events. The truth is that we belonged there. We were there because that’s where we belonged. Since President Trump returned, a global network has been forming, consisting of people and government leaders who seek peaceful solutions to all armed conflicts. And these people are gathering around President Trump. The power is there, the capability is there, and Hungary is part of this network. We were on the side of peace even when there was no such network – but now there is. And it’s not limited to Europe, or even to the Western world – there are also people from the East in it. If you recall, in the last few weeks I’ve been to the Emirates, I’ve been to Qatar, and I’ve met with the leaders of the Turkic states. So there’s a network. It hasn’t been announced, it hasn’t been officially established, but we know about one another, about the more than a dozen world leaders who are helping one another in the cause of peace – and who are helping the Americans most of all.
Of course, at such a large international meeting, who’s there is important; but who didn’t attend or didn’t receive an invitation is also significant. Among the V4 countries, indeed the whole of Central and Eastern Europe, only the Prime Minister was there. Six other EU leaders were also present, but Ursula von der Leyen, the President of the European Commission, was conspicuously absent.
But we represented her because she’s our employee. So Ursula von der Leyen is our employee: the employee of the leaders of the Member States. So we represented her, and she wasn’t missed .
The Hungarian public was most impressed by the press conference held by President Trump, where he spoke about several EU and non-EU leaders. He called the Prime Minister a great leader and a fantastic person. Did that surprise you? Is your personal relationship with President Trump like that? Or how should we imagine it?
Our personal relationship is better than that – when we’re alone we tend to say better things about each other. But I don’t think that’s relevant here, that’s not the point. There were European leaders who were there because of their weight, because they have regional influence. The British have always had influence there, as they were colonial rulers in that region, as were the French; and you can’t invite the French and the British without inviting the Germans. That’s pretty clear. And the Italians also have considerable influence on the southern coast of the Mediterranean, so that was also logical. They were there because of their power. We were there, I repeat, because I, as the Hungarian prime minister, am part of that peace-loving network. Hungarian foreign policy is famous throughout the world for its peace-loving nature, which means that in every conflict, if something needs to be done, if something’s needed, then we’re there. So when it comes to the cause of peace, from Ukraine to the West Bank, you can count on the Hungarians. I repeat: we were there, I might say, in recognition of our work for peace. And the President… Well, if you’re in a network, and there are a dozen of us in it, then it’s normal to support one another, and the best way for an American president to support someone is to say that they’re a good leader. We can believe that there’s a basis for this, but that will be decided by the Hungarian voters. But it’s undoubtedly true that in the company we were in, I’m the person who’s been in office the longest – with the exception of the President of Azerbaijan. This means that I know everyone and every dossier the best, and this is why I can help. And since we’re on the side of peace and willing to help, this is a useful thing to do together. We never push ourselves forward – neither I nor Hungary applied to be there. We know our place, how big our country is, how much influence it has, and what our capabilities are. But when it comes to the cause of peace and if we’re needed, then we can be counted on.
President Trump also said that he’s confident of your election victory in 2026.
Well, it’s easy for him.
He’s 100 per cent behind you. What does this mean in practice?
Good for him that he’s sure of it. Few people know Hungary because, after all, we live in linguistic isolation. So no one can obtain information about Hungarian politics, except through the Hungarian language: some journalist or analyst or someone else has to translate it into some European language. This is why the depths of Hungarian politics can’t be seen from the outside. This is why every election here, even if it ends with a two-thirds majority, is a very serious clash – often unfortunately very rough, and downright brutal. So there’s no foregone conclusion here. Anyone who thinks that the fact that I’m now serving my fifth term as Prime Minister means that it’s easy to win elections here doesn’t know the Hungarian people, doesn’t know Hungary, and doesn’t know the history of elections. It may look that way from the outside, but in reality you always have to fight tooth and nail to win people’s trust – fight until the very last minute, by which time you’re drenched in sweat. Maintaining the trust of the Hungarian people is perhaps the most difficult thing in the world.
Will there be another Orbán–Trump meeting? Or did we count on the President of the United States coming to Budapest?
I can’t answer the latter, but there will be a meeting. Not too far in the future.
Do we know any details about it?
We have a date, and the agenda is about 80 per cent complete. When we can agree with the Americans on the remaining 20 per cent, we’ll decide together with them on when to announce the meeting, and then it will happen.
And what’s the 80 per cent that’s already been agreed upon?
Basically about the economy.
So, let’s say, the double taxation agreement?
That’s one of the biggest issues. You see, America is now going home and taking its assets with it. Concluding such an agreement – which we’re requesting, by the way, and for which we’ve lined up a lot of arguments – is currently contrary to the tariff and trade policy being pursued by the Americans. So I don’t have an easy job. But we’ve sorted out the visa issue, so it’s easy to travel again. We’ve restored political relations, and eight major American investments have come here: despite the fact that America’s going home, Hungary is a country that they’re coming to, and three or four more serious American investments are coming here this year. So we’re working on an economic package. This will happen this year.
President Trump saying that he stands behind you 100 per cent has been framed by the opposition media as interference in the Hungarian elections. This is certainly unpleasant for a self-respecting sovereigntist government. Is this unpleasant for you, Prime Minister?
I hope you don’t take this as mockery or flippancy, but we also interfered in the American elections. We supported President Trump.
And what did the other heads of state and government who were at this summit say about what President Trump said? You see, not everyone was so lucky. For example, all the American president could think to say about Friedrich Merz, the German chancellor, was that he’s tall, and so he can easily find him there among the rows of people.
Yes, that’s a serious consideration. But joking aside, I’ve been working with the American president since 2015 or 2016. Taking into account the difference in size, I wouldn’t call this cooperation balanced. But everyone else has betrayed the American president at least once – the only exception being Hungary. So when he lost the election, suddenly everyone melted away, disappeared, and sought the favour of the Biden administration. Not Hungary! We would have been happy to work with the Biden administration, but we couldn’t, because on the very issues that separated the Biden administration from the Trump administration – the Democrats from the Republicans – we have a very strong, principled, and historically grounded position. This centres on migration, family protection and peace. So we couldn’t work with the Biden administration, because we disagreed on the most important issues. This is why I couldn’t really do anything else. But our nature is such that Hungarians are a loyal bunch: once a friend, always a friend, and as long as the other party doesn’t ruin the friendship, we always stand by our friends. So we remained on President Trump’s side even when he was in opposition and it was unclear what would happen to him – whether he’d return at all, and if he tried, whether he’d succeed. But in politics, as in everyday life, friendships are built this way – standing by each other brings friendship. Then come the interests of the state. Friendship doesn’t mean that we’ll do anything for the other person. Well, I’m not going to do anything for anyone except what’s in the interests of Hungarians; because then political and state considerations come into play – and personal sympathy is important, it helps things along, but essentially we must agree on things. If the interests of the nations differ fundamentally, then no friendship can bridge that gap – at best the damage can be limited. So, even though we’ve built up very firm friendships and relationships over the past twenty years, for me Hungary always comes first.
Did you have the opportunity to speak with the American president separately at this summit?
A few words. We’ll be meeting again soon anyway.
And with the others?
I had time for that.
For example, with the EU leaders – Macron, Merz, Meloni?
There was an opportunity for that, because – imagine this – we were waiting for the US president for more than five hours. So that was also unprecedented. We joked that you don’t wait that long in your life – for a woman let alone a man. But somehow the US schedule in Israel had slipped. They arrived five hours late. This wasn’t a problem for us, because Hungary is a country that lives off its work, not its prestige. So, as I mentioned, we were there because we do good things. But for those who are bigger and therefore – how shall I put it – have more authority, or demand more respect for their country, it’s not so easy to sit around for four or five hours in a waiting room. On the other hand, this gave us an excellent opportunity to have a longer discussion with the French president – and even longer with the Italian president. I was able to talk at length with the Indonesian president, whom I’d not met before; I was able to talk with the Turks, although I’d met them last week; and I was able to talk with the Arabs. So I was working, and those five hours were very valuable for me.
And did you discuss the upcoming EU summit and Ukraine with the French president and Meloni? What did you talk about?
Of course, it always comes up. I feel the growing pressure that Hungary is under, weighing heavily on Hungary’s shoulders. We must hold out.
And what do you think it is that Trump’s been able to do now in relation to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, but has been unable to do – or we’ve been unable to do – in relation to the Ukrainian–Russian war? Now the world can see up close what peace looks like – even when the situation seems utterly impossible and the sides are miles apart, peace can still be achieved. What’s the lesson to be learned from the Ukrainian–Russian war?
Well, I have a very blunt opinion on that. I’ll try to put it politely. President Trump would have made peace in the Ukrainian–Russian war long ago if the Europeans weren’t constantly inciting Zelenskyy behind the scenes. That’s the situation! So if the Europeans weren’t opposing Trump’s policies, but instead we Europeans and Americans were all on the same page, then there would already be peace. But European leaders want to continue the war. They have an extremely belligerent stance, a war strategy, and a war plan, which they speak about openly, and they’re working to pull President Trump from the side of peace to the side of continuing the war. If there were unity in the West, there would already be peace on the Ukrainian–Russian front.
And you usually tell him this with the same bluntness. He’s currently selling weapons to Europe – for good money, of course – which they’ll then give to Ukraine.
I’m not authorised to speak on behalf of the American president, so I can’t comment on that, but I can safely say that the Americans have done well. The Americans have pulled out of the Ukrainian–Russian war and aren’t giving a penny. We Europeans are so hapless that we either send our money directly to Ukraine or buy American weapons and send them there. The Americans say thank you very much, sit back and order another cup of coffee.
I started the conversation by saying that we’re having a tough week. Next week will be even tougher, with 23 October approaching, the Peace March, and the EU summit starting that same afternoon. António Costa, President of the European Council, has already announced that the main topic will be support for Ukraine. There are two proposals on the table, one of which is to freeze the assets of Russians living in Europe, amounting to around 140 billion euros, so that it can be given to Ukraine. The other is to remove the unanimity requirement so that EU accession negotiations with Ukraine can begin as soon as possible. According to this, for accession negotiations between Ukraine and the European Union to begin, instead of unanimity a qualified majority would now be sufficient – obviously in order to circumvent the Prime Minister’s veto. What’s the Prime Minister’s master plan for next week?
First we’re collecting signatures here at home, because you can’t take the field without having trained. We need one and a half to two million signatures to give weight to the Hungarian prime minister’s words. It’s no accident that we launched this campaign: anyone who doesn’t want to see Ukrainians in the European Union, doesn’t want to see our sons fighting in a Ukrainian war, and doesn’t want Hungarian money to go to Ukraine, should quickly find the nearest stand and sign the petition against all that. I don’t see any possibility of any change. We’re in consultation with the Russians on the issue of frozen Russian assets, and we want to clearly see what will happen. Because obviously, if the Russians’ money is touched, which in itself raises a number of legal issues, there will be Russian countermeasures – and I’d like to see what those countermeasures will be. For example, will the assets of Hungarian companies operating in Russia be seized or frozen, and if we agree to this will there be countermeasures against Hungarian companies? And I want to discuss this openly. This is what’s happening with the Russians, anyway. What if we support this European proposal, and what if we don’t? This needs to be clarified. This is the responsibility that the Hungarian government of the day has to the country, and it requires us to clarify what the consequences of a particular step will be. And now we need to find this out from the Russians. So Hungarian preparations for the summit, the European Union summit, are underway on this parallel track as well. So if Hungarian companies suffer retaliation in Russia because Hungary also supports the use of Russian assets seized in Europe, then of course I won’t support this, because it will mean Hungary suffering losses. My job is to ensure that Hungarians don’t suffer losses, but rather that they fare better and better. And this wouldn’t be good for them, but bad. The other issue is “changing the rules of procedure”. I don’t see why we should agree to this, since the Hungarian people have clearly stated in a referendum that they don’t want to belong to an integration framework with the Ukrainians – either in NATO or in the European Union. This is a sovereign country, and if we’re already in, say, a union, the people have the right to decide who we let in and who we don’t – who we want to live with and who we don’t want to live with. We want to live with those who are already in, we want to be in a union, and that’s why we joined. When we accepted new states – Croatia, say – that came after us and supported them, we did so because we’re happy to live with them in the European Union; but we don’t want to live with the Ukrainians. We don’t want it because if we live together with Ukrainians in the European Union, then Ukrainians will bring the Russian war here, into the European Union. And when Ukraine is at war with Russia, it’s not Ukraine that will decide, but the Russians, who have at least as much influence. This would expose Europe to the constant threat of war from Russia. This is why Ukraine shouldn’t be admitted. It would be contrary to the security interests of all Hungarians; but I believe it would also be contrary to the security interests of the citizens of other European nations. Are the same time, if we were to admit them, all the money would go to Ukraine. All the money! So a significant amount of Hungarian taxpayers’ money would migrate to Ukraine. Why should we support that?
The Prime Minister mentioned that there’s a lot of pressure, and there will be a Peace March on the very day the EU summit begins.
The name “Peace March” has never been as apt or timely as it is now.
If I’m not mistaken, the EU summit begins in the afternoon, and I suppose you’ll set off from Kossuth Square and head straight for Brussels.
What’s more, the problem’s even bigger. Because this isn’t the first time that an EU summit has been scheduled for the national holiday, for 23 October; and even though I’ve been explaining this to them in Brussels for years now and asking them not to do this, they refuse to take note of it and won’t change it for our sake. So the summit will start before I arrive, which means that I’ll have to send the Hungarian position on these issues in writing, and in the debate we’ll probably ask the Slovaks – Prime Minister Fico – to represent the Hungarian position until I arrive. And from here, from the Peace March, I’ll rush off to Brussels like a piglet shot out of a cannon, if I may put it that way.
Yes, fifteen years ago we’d have found it difficult to imagine the Slovaks representing Hungary’s position at an EU summit.
Well, what about that! This is why I say that you must never give up. This is also the most important lesson to be learned from peace negotiations. I’ll say it again. Peace negotiations – we need only think of the Russian–Ukrainian ones now – are extremely tortuous and full of setbacks: you try, and you fail. If you take offence, if you give up, if you’re arrogant, if you lack humility, humility towards peace or the cause, you won’t be able to bring about peace. And today this is what the Europeans lack. So, for the sixteenth time, at the European Union summit I’ll say that in my opinion we must do what the Americans are doing. But for this we need the big boys of Europe. This task isn’t for those of the size of Hungary, but for the Germans, the French and the Italians. We need to negotiate with the Russians. We don’t just need Russian–Ukrainian negotiations – they’ll take care of that themselves. We Europeans need to negotiate directly with the Russians about the future of Europe, its security system, its economic system, its energy supply, the border between Ukraine and Russia, where we station our weapons, and how many soldiers we have. But this requires humility. And that is what’s lacking.
Well, that will be the final word. Prime Minister, thank you very much for the interview. And thank you very much to Mandiner viewers for your attention. See you again soon!