Of course, I always eat puliszka, but today I won’t go home without eating mics [mititei], I always eat chorba, so I also take part in your way of life.
Zoltán Kádár: I’m very glad that you feel at home in Transylvania. You might not even want to go home, and many people would be happy if you stayed here.
Well, I’d gladly stay if my work allowed me to.
Greetings to the viewers of Transzilván’s “Mélyvíz”. My name is Zoltán Kádár. Our guest is Viktor Orbán, Prime Minister of Hungary. Prime Minister, thank you very much for accepting our invitation.
Thank you for inviting me.
We’re sitting here in Transylvania/Erdély. What comes to mind when you hear that? Transylvanian? Do you have a Transylvanian feeling, how do you feel? You’ve visited us many times.
Of course I do! Hungary – or rather the Hungarian world – is a colourful world. Even at home, it’s not monochromatic. So if you go to Zala or Szatmár, you experience two different ways of life. Of course! The great Hungarian world has a Vojvodina/Vajdaság part, a Felvidék part, and a Transylvania/Erdély part – so there’s a Transylvanian feeling. What’s more, I think the Transylvanian feeling extends beyond the Hungarian community, because I think – but this isn’t my business, it’s yours – that even the Romanians share this Transylvanian feeling of life.
Do you have a favourite Transylvanian dish?
There are very few things that I won’t eat once they’ve been made or prepared. Of course, I always eat puliszka, but today I won’t go home without eating mics [mititei], and I always eat chorba. So I also take part in your way of life.
I’m very glad that you feel at home in Transylvania. You might not even want to go home, and many people would be happy if you stayed here.
Well, I’d gladly stay if my work allowed me to. It’s always worth coming here once or twice a year. What’s more, these two worlds are connected: the Transylvanian world – let’s call it that – and the Hungarian world. There are countless personal connections and sporting events, so this Hungarian world is organising itself increasingly strongly. This is evident not only in politics but also in culture and sport, and so when they come here people can share uplifting experiences. But if you come to Hungary, let’s say this weekend, we’re playing Armenia at Puskás Aréna on Saturday. I always meet Hungarians from Transylvania who come to Budapest for matches. This is commonplace now. This border has become an administrative matter, and in fact it no longer hinders cultural, sporting and economic unity – especially after Hungary succeeded in arranging for the Romanians to become part of the Schengen Area. This has not only helped the Romanians, but also our Hungarian national communities.
Since you’ve mentioned football, very briefly, how do you see the national team’s chances?
I’m not the national team’s manager for a number of reasons. This feeling about life isn’t unique to me: there’s a Hungarian joke that Hungary has perhaps the most talented national coaches in the world – what a pity that they’re too busy driving cars, taxis, cutting hair, or being Prime Minister... And I’m one of them. We’re moving upwards, but we’re dissatisfied and impatient. This is understandable, since once we were at the top of the world; but it will take a few more years to get back there, and everyone would like to move faster than we can. But there’s no doubt that we’re moving forward: every year we’re one rung higher on the ladder.
Recently the Hungarian community experienced great joy: on Thursday, we learned of another Nobel Prize winner – our sixteenth. Can we all rejoice together – all fifteen million Hungarians?
I’d like us to be able to, although László Krasznahorkai – whom I’d like to congratulate here – is undoubtedly not one of our political allies, to put it mildly: I can’t remember him ever writing a single good line about the national government in his life. But that doesn’t matter, that’s not important right now. Because literature can’t be viewed through the lens of party politics. He’s produced a serious body of work, and if a Hungarian writer is recognised by being chosen from among all the writers in the world for international recognition, and indeed for the highest honor, a Nobel Prize, then I think everyone should be happy about that – even me, even us, who belong to the national side and who, of course, believe that Hungarian literature isn’t just Imre Kertész and László Krasznahorkai, because there were great writers before them and there will be great writers after them who can’t necessarily be lumped together with international liberal literary trends. But none of that matters now – this is a national achievement. And this is why we’re grateful to László Krasznahorkai for a body of work that’s earned Hungary a Nobel Prize. Of course they’re giving it to him, but we Hungarians always feel that it’s received by Hungarian literature, Hungarian culture, Hungarian art – by us Hungarians.
Similarly, when Szoboszlai scores a goal, we’ve scored it – it’s kind of the same thing.
We won at Nándorfehérvár [the siege of Belgrade], and we adopted Christianity, didn’t we? So there are things like that. Hungarians think about the past in the first-person plural.
In a podcast, Prime Minister, you’ve said that Hungarian citizenship is based on blood, so the state doesn’t create it, but recognises it. At the same time, in Hungary it’s often said that only those who pay taxes there should be allowed to vote. And recently we, the Hungarians of Transylvania/Erdély, have been hearing this increasingly often. There are also advocates of this view in Transylvania/Erdély. What’s your message to those Hungarians in Transylvania/Erdély, Hungarian citizens of Transylvania/Erdély, who may be feeling uncertain about this?
Well, first of all, my message is that they belong to a large national community, and that together with that size comes diversity. So there will never be 100 per cent national unity, even on the most fundamental issues – because we’re Hungarians, and that’s not possible for us. But the point is that the decisive force is the majority. And in this regard, the decisive force, the vast majority, stands behind the Hungarians of Transylvania/Erdély, who say that there’s one Hungarian nation – and the nation has no borders. The state has borders, but the nation does not. Citizenship expresses national community. Therefore anyone who has Hungarian ancestors – that is, who considers themselves to be of Hungarian descent – is naturally entitled to Hungarian citizenship, as they belong to our great national community. Today there’s a large majority behind this position. If this is the case, the next question is the following. Does the current Hungarian government, which is formed on Hungarian territory, have an obligation towards Hungarian communities living outside the modern-day territory of the Hungarian state? Yes, it does! The Hungarian constitution clearly states that it’s the duty of the Hungarian government to maintain, support and assist Hungarian communities living beyond the borders – in other words outside Hungary – and to preserve their identity. I think this is a clear-cut issue. And then there’s the question of whether Hungarians who don’t live in Hungary should be allowed to vote. Since they didn’t move away from Hungary, and the majority of Hungarians didn’t go anywhere, but instead the state borders were pushed elsewhere, it would be completely unfair to exclude them from the opportunity to vote in elections. This is why we granted them dual citizenship and the right to vote in elections – and this is how it will remain. The Left is internationalist and doesn’t understand this national dimension – or can’t accept it as deeply as it’s natural for us to accept it. This is part and parcel of Hungarian politics: there will always be those – now even Tisza and DK [Democratic Coalition] – who say that Hungarians living beyond the borders should be deprived of their right to vote. There will always be people like that. The important thing is to keep them in the minority.
At the same time, they attack us – and I say “us” because we’re Transylvanian Hungarians – because of the Hungarian Language in the Homeland programme, which they claim gives us an unfair advantage.
I believe that there’s competition among nations in the world to see who survives and who doesn’t. And considering how, over the past few hundred years, so many peoples who lived alongside us have disappeared, it’s clear that it’s not easy for a nation to survive in the modern world. And the survival of a nation depends on the performance of the entire national community around the world, which is why we must help one another. Hungarians in Transylvania/Erdély – and even Hungarians living in America and Latin America – must help Hungary, and Hungary must help them. Everyone will do this in a different way, because obviously things have to be done differently by members of a diaspora than they’re done by members of the huge, concentrated, million-strong community of Hungarians in Transylvania/Erdély. The Hungarian Language in the Homeland programme, and all the support that serves to preserve religious identity and cultural and linguistic identity, are in the interest of all Hungarians. They’re not only in the interest of those who are here, but everyone around the world who belongs to the Hungarian community. We’re a global nation, and that’s how our fate has unfolded; but no Hungarian must be left alone, no Hungarian must feel alone, they must be able to count on others – and this is why, through its actions, the Hungarian government must represent this spirit. This is why these support mechanisms exist. In this the libs and the Left see money, they see funding – and of course there is money in it, and the support is also a material reality. But what it expresses isn’t material, but something much higher: a culture and ideal of national unity that transcends money and the material world. We see this in it, and as long as we’re in the majority, there’s no need to worry. And for now, we’re in a strong majority.
What do the one million Hungarians in Transylvania/Erdély give to Hungary?
They give a host of major things. I can highlight some of these. There’s economic cooperation, which means that even leftists and libs can understand something of what we’re talking about. There’s enormous trade between Romania and Hungary, a significant part of which is due to economic cooperation between Hungarians living in Transylvania/Erdély and Hungarians living in Hungary. That’s just one example. Then there are the many people who work in Hungary. The Hungarian labour market would be in deep trouble if Hungarians living abroad didn’t sometimes appear in the Hungarian economy on assignments of varying lengths. Then, of course, there’s intellectual achievement: they write, read, research, and create. The Sapientia Hungarian-language university contributes greatly to universal Hungarian achievement. We have excellent vocational training institutions, which we established on a Hungarian basis, and excellent people work there as well. And finally, what’s most difficult to understand for those poor things whose mothers didn’t read them the right stories when they were children, and who therefore drifted to the Left, is that it’s very important to always think of a nation – and certainly the Hungarian nation – as a loaf of bread: the inside is always softer and crumbles; what holds it together is the crust. And the Hungarians living abroad are the crust. So, in reality, who we are, what we are, why it’s important for us to remain Hungarian, is difficult to understand in Budapest; because there Hungarian identity is completely natural, there’s no need to fight for it, as we’re living in this Hungarian world. But those Hungarians who live outside the borders, for whom remaining Hungarian requires effort, are the ones who do most to hold this bread together, who hold the Hungarian nation together. I think that without Hungarians living abroad, Hungarians in Hungary would also be in big trouble.
Hungarian–Hungarian relations on social media have been quite unsettled lately. From this we feel that many have turned against us. Can Hungarian–Hungarian relations still be straightened out?
It’s difficult, because lefties and libbies are an agile lot. Being internationalists, they keep their windows and doors open at all times, watching what’s going on in the world; and when something new comes along, they can adopt it in an instant. And they’re not untalented. When the digital world and the whole of online politics and culture appeared, they were the first to jump on board. By the time a Hungarian conservative has taken one step, a lib has already made three backflips. So, we need to be aware of our own strengths, but also our own weaknesses. And here we have a competitive disadvantage. The Left has found it much easier to occupy this online space. This is true in politics, in public life, and it’s also true in culture. But we’re also progressing nicely at our own slightly conservative, slower pace – and, little by little, since we’re more numerous, we’ll also eventually gain a majority in this space. It would be better to do this more quickly or to take bigger steps, but this is all we can do. We’re making progress, however.
You’ve come to the congress of the Democratic Alliance of Hungarians in Romania [RMDSZ]. What’s your specific goal?
Firstly, because I was invited – and I always try to accept such honourable invitations, if I can. Secondly, I was asked to address the congress, so I’d like to share a few thoughts with my fine Hungarian compatriots. And the Romanian prime minister, Mr. Bolojan, will also be here, appearing with me at the RMDSZ congress. This will have outstanding symbolic value in terms of cooperation between the two countries.
Romanian–Hungarian relations seem balanced. Is this really the case, or is there still a sense of mistrust?
Yes, but I don’t know if it will ever disappear, so to speak. Let’s be honest and realistic: these two peoples have a very special shared history, with many conflicts in it. And a lot of grievances – injustices, many things – have accumulated.
Couldn’t this be somehow resolved once and for all...
No! There are things in life where our highest expectation is that we’ll be able to cope with them. So there are truths that are mutually incompatible, and that’s how it is. This is true not only in politics and relations between nations, but also in private life. So the real question is whether we can disagree peacefully. That’s always the question – not only in international politics, but also in domestic politics. We’ll never agree on every important issue. The question is whether we can disagree peacefully. And with a history such as the shared history of Romania and Hungary, we must realise that what we see now – peace, cooperation, goodwill, and the pursuit of coexistence – isn’t the natural state of affairs. With such a historical background, this is rather an exceptional phase, and it requires a decision. So this won’t happen automatically: cooperation, peace and mutually supportive policies between the two countries will only be possible if the leaders of both countries, thinking alike, decide that we want to live and walk in peace and on the path of common advancement. That is the question! At present, Romania has a leadership that, as I see it, has made this decision. The Hungarian government is the same. I’ve been leading such a government for fifteen years – and indeed for a total of twenty years. We’re looking for ways to cooperate. This requires daily decisions to ensure that, in the shadow of history, this cooperation takes place. Mr. Bolojan is a good partner in this. So far I can only say the best about him. He’s from Oradea/Nagyvárad, he understands this matter, and every day he makes decisions to ensure that the two peoples live in peace and work together. This isn’t always possible to achieve through the bureaucracy, but it’s still very important for leaders to strive for this coordination and cooperation.
One of the important links in this good cooperation could be the RMDSZ – or rather, the RMDSZ is that. The Democratic Alliance of Hungarians in Romania is part of the government in a unified nation state, and in these circumstances it’s trying to defend the rights of Hungarians.
The RMDSZ has a serious history behind it. It’s now thirty-five years old, which is why I’m here – for a mid-decade anniversary, so to speak. For us the RMDSZ is the voice of good sense and reason in Bucharest. So I think that all Hungarians, regardless of where they live, can be proud of the RMDSZ, because the RMDSZ can deliver quality performance in government, and it’s always been able to do so. And I think that it has this kind of respect and recognition in the Romanian world.
It’s no coincidence that Romanians also say that its politicians are among the best.
Yes, so there’s no doubt that they represent quality. The RMDSZ represents quality, well-prepared people, serious people with government experience. It’s not as easy to run a government as one might think from one’s chair, or from a barber’s chair, or from a taxi driver’s seat. Because, of course, everyone thinks they’re qualified to be the national team’s manager, because they’re Hungarian; and we also all think that we’re equipped to be Prime Minister. That’s not the case – governing involves operating complicated machinery. You need to recognise this, you need experience, you need knowledge – and maybe a little talent doesn’t hurt either. The RMDSZ has all of that. The RMDSZ is of great value to Romanian politics, and it’s also of great value to Hungarian policy for the nation. So I think that being a Hungarian in the Romanian government is of course a difficult task, but the RMDSZ is holding its own.
How do you see Romania’s place here in the region? It’s a country on the Black Sea, it’s also a neighbour of Ukraine, an ally, a partner…
It’s very difficult. Being Romanian isn’t easy either. So this area of the continent is at a critical location. First of all, there’s the western direction, towards Hungary, which is also complicated for them; then there’s the whole Black Sea region, which even includes the Russians, doesn’t it? It borders the Caucasus and is also a gateway to the Turkish world. So it can’t be easy to pursue good Romanian national policy. It’s not my job to think about this, but sometimes I read the very high-quality writings on national policy, national strategy and geopolitics published by Romanian institutions. These appear in Budapest, I read them, and they’re of high quality. And they reveal the dilemmas around which thinking on policy for the Romanian nation revolves. But that’s their business; we need to deal with policy for the Hungarian nation.
We started with sport, so let’s end with a little more. FK Csíkszereda has won its first victory, a historic victory.
Yes, we had to wait seven or eight matches, yes.
More than that: twelve... Did you follow the match?
Oh, of course! I follow Hungarian clubs everywhere in the Carpathian Basin.
Sepsi OSK?
That’s football. That’s all I can say – sometimes you’re up, sometimes you’re down. Sometimes your wheels are rolling, sometimes you’re on foot, as they say. Right now they’re on foot, and the wheels on the cart aren’t moving. I often talk to the owner when I meet him. For example, he regularly shows up at the Hungarian national team’s matches in Budapest, and when I’m here in Transylvania/Erdély I always meet him. He doesn’t have an easy job. But it was a big investment, a big development, a big commitment to get Sepsi OSK into the Romanian top flight, but now they’ve been relegated. The Puskás Academy was also relegated from the Hungarian top flight, but then we fought our way back up. So I wish them every success. It wouldn’t be good if all that work, all that capital – both in terms of knowledge and money – that the owner, the owners, the fans and the community have built up around the sports club over the past few years were to disappear, fall apart and crumble away. Because here we’re not talking about eleven players, but a huge community. It wouldn’t be good if it suddenly disappeared into thin air. So I’m rooting for them – and, as far as I can, I’m supporting them.
I recently spoke with Gábor Rakonczai and Kristóf Rasovszky. They all thanked the fifteen million Hungarians for their support. The same goes for Tibor Kapu, our man in space. And now there’s László Bölöni, who’s the subject of a film. Have you seen the trailer?
No. I saw that the film was coming out, but I haven’t seen the film itself.
What does László Bölöni mean to Hungarians?
Well, I’m an old man now, and I remember the 1980s, when the team Bölöni played for were still champions, winning the European Cup – which at the time was the pinnacle of the world. And he played a decisive role in that. The role of hard-working midfielders that he played was a key one in that team. So we’ve known his name for a very long time. From time to time he was lured into politics in Transylvania, and even in Hungary his name came up here and there – which shows that there’s trust in him. It’s very difficult for a successful player to prove himself as a coach, especially in an environment that’s foreign to him. He’s achieved great success in France, which shows that we can be proud of him – he’s accomplished something significant. And as a Hungarian in the Romanian national team, don’t even mention it – it’s hard to imagine anything more complicated. But he proved himself.
Prime Minister, thank you very much for accepting our invitation. And if you’d like to stay, please feel free to do so.
Thank you very much.