Gábor Gönczi: I welcome Prime Minister of Hungary Viktor Orbán to the “Tények” studio. Thank you for being here with us.
I’m very happy to be here.
We’ve just witnessed the biggest diplomatic event in our country’s history. It was a historic meeting, with the entire leadership of Europe here. First of all, congratulations on that, because bringing it together was a great thing. Secondly, it came just after Donald Trump’s victory in the US presidential election, which is also a great achievement. We now know that he also won all the battleground states. As you’ve said, this is a victory that can be seen from Mars. I don’t think we’ll forget this weekend.
Indeed, the stars were aligned for the European meeting, because there’s usually a risk that such a European meeting will slide into apathy. This wasn’t the case this time, and for two reasons. Firstly, because President Donald Trump won again, and this was the first European meeting after the election. Everyone’s looking at one another, everyone knows that the world’s going to change, everyone knows that what’s been said so far will no longer work. People are interested in knowing what will happen next. This tension, this excitement – let’s say this intellectual excitement – was with us throughout, all the time, and made the meeting interesting. The second thing is that we’ve adopted a European document here, about which we’ll be hearing a lot more. This is the declaration, the agreement on European competitiveness. This is an achievement of our Presidency, in which we’ve laid down the principles and some decisions that need to be taken in the coming period in order to halt the European economy’s descent – its decline – and to enable us to catch up with those that are more successful than we are. This is a document that we’ll be hearing a lot more about. And the third point – which of course caused us Hungarians more excitement – is that in the West people kick us in the backside and from the Left and the Right say so many things that it’s difficult to know what to take seriously. Now, things can’t be that bad if the Hungarian prime minister invites forty or more European heads of state and government to come here, and all 26 EU Member States – 26 apart from us – are here, stay here, take part in discussions, thank us and treat us with respect. This shows that Hungarian diplomacy is strong. I’d also say that I think that at no time over the past one hundred years has Hungarian diplomacy been as strong as it is now, and we haven’t had as much influence in the world as we have now, especially in proportional terms – because we are the size that we are. This is thanks to János Bóka, who’s in charge of European affairs, and Foreign Affairs Minister Péter Szijjártó. Due to their personal achievements over many years, we can now say with confidence, without boastfulness, that Hungarian diplomacy has never been as good and as strong as it is today.
We didn’t look like an isolated country – that was clear to anyone anywhere in the world who turned on their television. You’ve said that a new chapter in history is beginning, and that from now on the world will most certainly change direction. What does this mean?
Going back to the campaign period in the United States, now everyone is surprised that Donald Trump won, but I’d like to declare myself to be the exception. I saw that his victory was as obvious as two times two equalling four. Because the situation in America is the same as it is in Europe: people have had enough of the war. It’s costing a lot, they don’t see the point, the destruction is horrific, and it’s heart-rending for them. They’ve had enough of migration, they see that it leads to crime and terrorism, and they’re losing their sense of being at home. They’ve also had enough of this gender thing, with activists trying to tell us how to bring up our children. Increasingly people in Europe have had enough of this, but America’s an even freer world, a more outspoken world, and there people had already had enough of it long ago. And the Democratic government that’s lost was pro-war, pro-migrant and pro-gender. I felt that with such a mood among the public it was unthinkable that anyone could win if they were promoting policies which run against the will of the people. So I thought that the Government would lose anyway. Logically it followed that President Trump would return.
Do you think that we’re one step closer to peace?
We’re not just one step closer, but a giant step closer, one step closer with seven-league boots. You can see it in the news. If you just compare the use of words in the news media you can see the change in proportions everywhere: before the election, before the US election, how much and how many people talked about war; and since the election how much and how many people talk about peace. So today the whole world is speculating about how the new US president will achieve peace. So what the whole of Western public opinion is thinking about now isn’t the continuation of the war, but the question of “how we can make peace”. This is a huge step.
Of course Hungarian people and Hungarian families are very, very interested in the development of the war, because it directly affects us. It’s terrible to see what’s happening. But at the same time, the Hungarian people are obviously interested in their own wallets and in their own future. From this point of view, what can Trump’s victory bring, what can the Hungarian people feel, given the fact that, as you’ve said, the US election has been won by Hungary’s friend?
I think that this is the most important question; because world politics and the global system change is a beautiful thing, but the real question is what will happen to us. Now the first thing I’d like to say to you and to the viewers is that Donald Trump isn’t our saviour, but our brother-in-arms. So we Hungarians, the Hungarian government of the day, must continue to stand up for Hungarian interests. We can achieve our interests and our goals more easily than before, but only we can achieve them. So let’s not see the US president as a redeemer or saviour, but as a brother-in-arms. He’s fighting for the same things that Hungary’s fighting for. The second important thing is that – for precisely this reason – we’re not alone. So it’s not by chance that we often have the feeling that in matters that are important for Hungary we’re alone. Now we’re no longer alone: we have the whole of America and the American administration with us. The third thing is that the war is killing the economy. So if I look at the history of the Hungarian economy, we’ve been moving upwards for a full ten years, the country has been moving forward at a good pace, and no one has ever questioned that. Together with all the criticism, sometimes justified and sometimes unjustified, there’s been no question that the country is changing – changing for the better, moving upwards, building, progressing, developing. We even managed to outmanoeuvre COVID; but then the war came, and the war hobbled us – the entire European economy, and Hungary with it. War, sanctions, rising energy prices, inflation. And until the war is over it will be very difficult to get the economy back on the upward trajectory it was on. Well, I think we’re like a patient who’s been lying at home in his room for a long time, and now it turns out that he can get up. So what’s the first thing you do? You open the window. The fresh air comes in, it takes sickness out and brings in peace. And then suddenly everything changes. Now I think that process has started. So, first of all, next week we’ll start discussing the budget. I’m talking about Hungary’s economy next year, and we had to come up with two versions: whether we could present a pro-war, wartime budget or a peace budget. Now we can certainly present a peace budget. This means that we must divert less money to war spending, and we can afford much more for things that help people’s everyday prosperity. So in this budget an unprecedented small business development programme is being launched, the workers’ loan is coming in, the opportunity for cheaper, more affordable homes and housing is being created, and we can keep the thirteenth month’s pension. So there are all sorts of important things happening in the coming period that we couldn’t afford if the war were to continue – and indeed there would be a daily danger of it reaching us and sucking us in. So first and foremost Donald Trump’s victory will bring back peace and expand our economic opportunities. Secondly, I’d like to conclude a major Hungarian–American agreement with the President. We’ve already talked about this. There are some things that the current US administration has failed to do: for example, the double taxation treaty wasn’t concluded with us when it expired, and it needs to be concluded again; and I’d also like to conclude an agreement with the President on some major economic issues, and I think we’ll have the opportunity to do so.
This sounds very, very good. Let’s come back to the summit for a moment. What do you think was most at stake at this summit? What was the most important topic?
The most important thing that we faced up to – and faced up to together, as a real team – is the fact that what Europe’s been doing cannot continue and must change. We’ve always been pro-peace and so we don’t feel this, but now think of those people, those leaders, who until yesterday – or until the day before yesterday – said that they’d support the war and Ukraine to the end, giving whatever it takes. Now this needs to be changed to the opposite. This isn’t simple. So this whole question of “how to change Europe”, of “how to adapt, how to adapt to the new situation that has changed” is a process that really needs to be conducted collectively. I don’t want Europe to split into opposing camps, but I’d like us to be able to move together from a pro-war position to a pro-peace position.
Excuse me, but is there agreement among the Member States on what the problem is? So there’s a serious competitiveness problem here – we agree on that; but is it just that we disagree on the solution?
If we’re talking about the economy, we had President Draghi, former Prime Minister of Italy, former President of the European Central Bank, and one of the most respected economists in European science – if we include economics in the sciences and not in poetry, but that’s another conversation. In any case, we’re talking about an expert whom we all respect, who presented a report in black and white and who said that if you pay four times as much for gas as your American competitor, if you – as a European – pay three times as much for electricity as your American competitor, you’ll always lose. Folks, change that! This is the depth of analysis that we’ve reached. I won’t say, I wouldn’t dare to say, that we agreed on how we’re going to get out of this difficult situation – because we Hungarians are getting out of it by rebelling. So our answer is simple. We’ve created reductions in household energy bills. When we needed to, we built a fence. We taxed the multinationals, the banks, the international companies. So we’ve gone against the European mainstream, we’re in a state of rebellion. But the others aren’t like that, they’re more cautious, accommodating types. Now they have to find their own new political path. But it will happen. The US president won’t take office tomorrow morning, but in January, and we have two months until then. It will be an exciting two months, the last two months of Hungary’s Presidency [of the European Council], and we’ll be stepping down on 1 January.
The Competitiveness Pact has been adopted, and it bears the name of Budapest – so from here it’s clear that this was a historic meeting, and it will certainly be an unforgettable one. Is there anything in this pact – and I’ve read through it – that’s good news for Hungarian families and the Hungarian people?
Of course! Only that kind of thing is in it. The first and most important thing is that within six months decisions must be taken in Europe to bring down energy prices. Right now the people of Hungary have the cheapest gas and electricity in the whole of Europe. This agreement will now primarily benefit entrepreneurs, because they pay very high prices for running their companies – as is the case across Europe. So the first thing is that we must implement a reduction in energy prices in Europe. This largely depends on the politicians, because they’ve got the formulae wrong for setting energy prices in Europe. The second point is that we’ve announced an anti-bureaucratic revolution, which means that within six months we have to dramatically reduce the number of rules that obviously only hinder free competition and the operation of companies and businesses. Everyone has known this for a long time, but they’ve been trying to deal with it as part of a slow process; and now those rules have to be eliminated within six months. And three: we’re introducing a new method, so that no new legislation can be passed without a competitiveness test. So legislation can only be proposed if it’s accompanied by a statement on whether it will harm competitiveness, improve it, or have no effect. These are important changes, and they’ll help the Hungarian economy a lot in the coming year.
After all this you promised, you said, that 2025 will be a fantastic year.
Sensational.
Yes?
Look, things are going to happen...
This is good news. It’s good news.
...that haven’t happened before. In Hungary workers’ credit has never happened before. The fact that Hungary can support young people who are studying, that was also largely introduced by the national government, of course, but it was a familiar idea – student loans and so on. Now, however, we’re extending that to young people who are in work. The fact that we can double the family tax allowance is also unprecedented. The fact that we’re introducing housing subsidies and forms of housing renovation that didn’t exist before is also unprecedented. And there will be a capital grant programme for small entrepreneurs – bearing the name of Sándor Demján – which will give small and medium-sized enterprises opportunities that didn’t exist before. So when I say the words “sensational” or “fantastic”, it sounds a bit American, but I say it with Hungarian intonation. So in 2025 we’ll have a very strong and good year, and the international conditions are now in place.
Prime Minister, allow me to ask you one last question. For two days my little boy has been talking on the phone to Donald Trump. I’ve told him that things aren’t that simple. How can we picture Donald Trump calling someone? Is it one of those top-secret secure lines, through three agents, across all sorts of offices, highly prepared – or is it something else?
During the campaign it was more like that. So when the campaign was in progress, and the President’s time was allocated minute by minute, as our life is during our campaigns, you had to find a window of time in advance when you could do anything that wasn’t the next rally or meeting with the voters. So during the campaign it was more complicated. But now after he’s won, the way it was, the last time, I was sitting in the kitchen with my wife and we were having tea and then my little Nokia rang; I picked it up and they said Donald Trump wanted to speak to me. I said “I’m here.” The President was on the other end and he said, “Good evening, Viktor, how are you all?” That’s more or less how it was.
Is that how it should be done? Then I’ll tell my little boy.
Everything’s easier when you win. Then, when he takes office in January, and normal operating procedures are in place, I don’t think the Nokia will ring so often, then it will have to be organised properly on official lines, on protected lines, and then the more boring – but more secure – order of state life will be in place.
Prime Minister, thank you very much for coming here.
Thank you also.