Zsolt Törőcsik: Donald Trump will be inaugurated in three days’ time. The US president-elect is promising major changes in both domestic and foreign policy; and Hungary is also looking forward to his inauguration with great anticipation, as it could have an impact on Hungarian–American relations, which have been at a very low point recently. What are the Government’s expectations related to Donald Trump? I’ll be asking Prime Minister Viktor Orbán about this in the minutes ahead. Good morning.
Good morning.
We see that around the world there’s a kind of expectation about this presidency, and it seems that everyone’s determining their next steps in line with this new situation – seeing it as either a positive or negative omen. What will be the biggest difference between the outgoing Biden administration and the incoming Trump administration?
Everything. Everything will change. It’s Friday today, but after Monday, after Inauguration Day – so from Tuesday morning – a different sun will rise over the Western world. It will be the end of four years of bitter, difficult and painful failures, four years of Democratic governance. Those years already got off to a bad start – after all, in 2020 Donald Trump’s presidency was fraudulently taken from him. So if there had been no fraud, of a kind which is unparalleled in a Western democracy, or at least which should be, Donald Trump would have remained President; and there would have been no Ukrainian–Russian war – to highlight just one important difference. But a Democratic administration came in after they’d deviously snatched it from the President’s hands – after they’d grabbed the election he’d won from the President’s hands. A Democratic administration is always different from a Republican one – not only in its content, but also in its methodology. Republicans stand on the foundation of the nation. Meanwhile Democrats are globalists, and they pursue their interests through a network of organizations around the world which aren’t directly US governmental organisations, but which are tied to the US government; so they pursue their interests through a network like that. The segment of this network that’s best-known to us and best understood by us can be identified by the name of our countryman, George Soros; but there are others, and this isn’t the only one in the world. There are others working for the American Democrats in Asia and Africa. As the prison guard in the movie “A tanú” [“The Witness”] says, “You’re all in the same gang!” So Soros and the Democrats are essentially part of a big network, their interests are fundamentally economic, and they subordinate politics to their economic interests. They have a strong desire to improve the world, and they believe that they have a duty, a right and a mission to improve humanity – that is to say, to impose on other countries what they, as Democrats in Washington, think is right. In such a situation the world is overwhelmed by migration and migration chaos, and gender insanity is unleashed. So when the American Democrats come in, traditional families had better run for cover; because then there will be Pride, rainbow flags, transgender and gender reassignment surgery, and the world will no longer be made up of men and women, but of an unknowable number of different kinds of beings. So this is the second consequence. And they won’t hesitate to use war to achieve their aims, as they’ve done with the Russo–Ukrainian war.
Yes, if we look at the situation from the point of view of Hungarian–American relations, what can we expect? Because in recent weeks these have hit rock bottom – politically speaking, at least. The United States has put Antal Rogán on its sanctions list, and the outgoing US ambassador has repeatedly criticised the Government. How do you assess US–Hungarian relations now?
Well, they sent a hoodlum here, whose job was to beat Hungary into submission; or – since we’re talking about Mr. Pressman – to press Hungary into conforming to the globalist, liberal, democratic canon. This is pro-migration, pro-gender, and it’s willing and prepared to use war to spread “the word” and Western values around the world. But Hungary is not such a country. This is how the problems arose. Hungary doesn’t want migrants. We have a history of a thousand years – one thousand one hundred years – in the Carpathian Basin. While we respect the three hundred years of American statehood, we have our own history, our own journey, our own mission, our own reason for being in the world, for the existence of Hungary. And the heart of this is to occupy the territory in the Carpathian Basin that has been entrusted to us, to cultivate it, to develop it in accordance with our own culture, and in general to create a Hungarian world of our own. In this there’s no place for a goon from America coming here and saying: “Let the migrants in. And from tomorrow this land, which may have been yours for one thousand one hundred years, no longer belongs to you, and not even to your neighbours.” The latter was no bed of roses, but at least it was an understandable story. But the idea that people from the other side of the world come here and take from you what you’ve worked for over the course of one thousand one hundred years isn’t part of a Hungarian’s way of thinking. So the work of the American ambassador was doomed to failure. It’s no accident that in four years I refused to meet him once. Let’s face it, this is quite unprecedented; but from the moment he was sent here it was obvious what his mission was, and I had no desire to assist him. It was clear that Hungarians are family-friendly. The most important thing in the mind of a Hungarian is the family. We couldn’t accept this traditional family model being looked down upon, mocked and ridiculed, with all kinds of nonsense offered in its place, and with those who envisage their lives within the traditional family framework being looked down upon. And the war is obviously at odds first and foremost with Hungary’s economic interests, but also with its security interests, because it’s a war in a neighbouring country. So relations hitting rock bottom was a built-in feature. The double taxation treaty wasn’t even renewed, entering America was made more difficult for Hungarians, and they harmed us wherever they could. The final little episode was that Antal Rogán, one of the Government’s ministers, was put on the sanctions list. This has strengthened the Minister’s position in Hungarian politics and in the Hungarian government to an unprecedented extent – because all I can infer from this is that he’s doing a good job. He’s the minister responsible for the national security services, the principal guardian of Hungarian national sovereignty; and if a great power punishes him, it means that he’s doing his job well. So this will have to be our starting point. The US president and I have come to an agreement that we’re going to have a golden age, because the Republicans aren’t disinclined to think on an ambitious scale or to express themselves in bold terms; so we’re going to have a fantastic, ambitious golden age in US–Hungarian relations. This will be felt in everyday life, and it will be felt in people’s pockets and in family budgets. Donald Trump winning the US election and bringing peace to the horizon has been a precondition for the Hungarian economy being able to lift off in January and get off to a flying start, and for the era of building to begin again after three years of war, after three years of destruction. And so we can say that on Monday a new era will begin.
In addition to Hungarian–American relations, US–European relations are also interesting; because so far we’ve seen that in Brussels the majority shares the Democrats’ position. At the same time, if we look at the European political map, we can see that the Patriots party family will likely give us another head of government in Herbert Kickl. And Italian prime minister Giorgia Meloni, with a frankness that’s not been typical of her, at least as head of government, has said that democracies aren’t threatened by Elon Musk, but by George Soros. How will – or how might – Trump’s presidency affect the current majority in Brussels and the power dynamic between the Patriots and the majority in Brussels?
When Donald Trump won for the first time in 2016, something happened that was little talked about: little talked about by the two of us, by the Hungarian public in general, and indeed by the European public. And this is that at that point the Democrats fled to Brussels. Now the same thing is happening again. So George Soros has lost the battle in America; I’d say that America has been liberated by Donald Trump, and Soros’s troops have now retreated to Brussels. So we Europeans are now facing a very difficult time: they’re embedding themselves in Brussels. And, if we really want to live as the Hungarians want and intend to live, the only goal we should have is to push them out of Brussels. So they must be put on a boat and sent home to America. If we don’t do this, Brussels will become the new Washington. In that case they’ll continue the policy of the American Democrats in Brussels, which is contrary to the interests of Europeans people and Hungarians. Therefore the most important foreign policy goal for 2025 is to push the Soros Empire out of Europe, to push them back to America, and then President Trump can do what he sees fit with them. And Hungary – which has always openly engaged in this conflict – will probably be the first country to push out the Soros Empire. This is my firmly held goal for this year. The time has come to speak clearly, to dismantle the foreign networks that threaten Hungarian sovereignty, and to send them home. And I hope that Hungary won’t be alone in this, but that the Patriots for Europe – because we’re talking about parties representing sovereignty – will take a similar stance, and that others will start this work alongside Hungary. This will lead to serious debates with Brussels, which must be conducted in a sensible manner: the interests of the European people must be demonstrated, and it must be shown that the presence of the Soros network in Europe is contrary to the interests of the European people. And then, with a decisive move, they must be pushed back across the ocean.
What means exist to do this – either in Hungary or in Europe? And what means can we expect from the current majority in Brussels?
The most important thing is to take money away from them. More precisely, it mustn’t be given to them. Today the Soros network is financed to a considerable extent from the Brussels budget. We cannot tolerate this, because it’s our money too. At the same time, I believe that the biggest corruption scandal in politics is the fact that Brussels is in the pocket of George Soros. So it’s obvious that the MPs, the bureaucrats in Brussels, the serious decision-makers, to whom George Soros has access, are bought off. In his final days in office US President Biden awarded him a decoration. But representatives of the Soros network are regularly received in Brussels, and they’re embedded there. If there’s corruption, then that is it. So I think that the aim is to put an end to this scandalous situation; and the most important thing is that we must regain access to the financial resources due to us from Brussels. That’s our money, and it mustn’t be given to the Soros network. It must be accounted for, down to the very last penny, and no money must be given to them in the future. This is what we must start with.
How can this be achieved, and who are the allies, perhaps standing alongside Hungary?
We must set a good example. So we’ll be taking the lead in this matter here in Hungary, and this will be the focus here this spring.
That’s the near future. And in the recent past, on 31 December, Hungary’s EU Presidency came to an end. The Presidency saw ratification of both the Competitiveness Agreement and the accession of Romania and Bulgaria to the Schengen Area, their Schengen membership. How did the Hungarian Presidency bring a new approach, allowing long unresolved issues to be settled?
The success of the Hungarian Presidency has been acknowledged even by our political opponents in Brussels, so we’re not blowing our own trumpet: if we examine the relevant assessments from our opponents, we can see that the Hungarian Presidency received universal recognition. The most important thing is that when it began, at the beginning of the Hungarian Presidency, the only country talking about peace – apart from the Vatican – was Hungary. Six months later, everyone’s talking about peace. So we managed to put peace on the table and keep it there. God has come to our aid with President Trump’s victory; because the truth is that the peace mission that Hungary undertook wasn’t commensurate with Hungary’s weight, with its international weight. We did this as a kind of imperative of Herculean proportions, as a Christian country, and also out of a sense of moral obligation. So it’s time for the President to receive the baton from Hungary on Tuesday morning, and from then on he’ll continue this difficult mission, which is more suited to the size of the United States. So from my point of view the most important thing in the Hungarian Presidency was that the issue of peace became a matter that could be discussed and negotiated. Previously this was seen as quite simply a betrayal of European interests – I mean it was seen as that by the others. The second important thing is that the borders between Bulgaria and Romania and the rest of the Union have been abolished. We did a lot of work with the Romanians on this, and we did a lot of work with the Bulgarians. We worked a lot with them, but we also worked a lot with the Prime Minister, the current Romanian prime minister Mr. Ciolacu. We managed to change the opposition, to change the position of the two or three countries that were against this. This was a serious job, which took some months. The fact that we succeeded is a tribute to Ministers Bóka and Pintér. This was a Sisyphean task involving painstaking work. In the negotiations we had to move forward one step every week, one baby step, until we finally reached a solution. And finally, the third important thing is that EU negotiations have begun with Albania, and – alongside the Ukraine issue, which has overshadowed everything else – we managed to bring the Western Balkans back into European politics. And on the economic front we managed to conclude important agreements on competitiveness. So I think that, given its size and weight, Hungary has done more during its European Presidency than could have been expected of it. The most important thing now is for Brussels to adapt to the changed situation, because a new period is beginning, especially in the area of war and peace and sanctions. It’s time to throw sanctions out of the window and establish a system of sanctions-free relations with the Russians. This is still a long way off, but we need to work on it. Right now the signs coming from Brussels aren’t encouraging. So what’s needed now is to sober up, but they’re still in the inebriation phase; this will pass and the hangover will set in, and then sobering up will begin. But this will take another month or two.
Competitiveness was one of the Presidency’s priorities, and this is also a key issue for this year’s domestic economic policy. For the time being, the data which enables us to talk about the state of the economy is mainly for November to December. We can see that industrial and construction output has fallen, while unemployment and inflation have risen somewhat. In these circumstances, what will it take for the 21-point economic policy action plan to live up to expectations?
Strange as it may seem, first you need peace. So the Hungarian economic policy plans are fine, thank you very much; but they’ll only work if the war doesn’t escalate, doesn’t spread, doesn’t continue, but can be slowly – or perhaps quickly – put on the back burner, and the sanctions policy that’s led to inflation can be lifted. And then we can start to deal with Ukraine. Because today we’re only dealing with Ukraine in the context of the Russo–Ukrainian war; but Ukraine itself is a serious threat to the European economy. Now everyone’s talking about Ukraine in a positive, supportive tone, which is understandable because of the war. But if we look to the post-war period, we need to acknowledge that for the European economy Ukraine is a very serious challenge – even a threat. So if Brussels doesn’t come to its senses, and we patriots cannot bring them to their senses, and Ukraine becomes linked to the European economy in the way that Brussels now wants it to be linked, then Hungarian farmers could be forced out of business. But Polish farmers could also be forced out of business. Even the French may well go the same way. So, because of Ukraine’s membership of the European Union, and in the absence of sufficiently strict regulation of economic relations in general, European agricultural societies could be ruined by economic relations with Ukraine. Here major protective measures will be needed. But, beyond the agricultural economy in general, economic cooperation with the Ukrainians also raises a number of questions; and, from the Hungarian point of view, at the moment I see far more dangers than opportunities. So we need to start dealing with the question of Ukraine – but not in the context of war. We’re talking about a country that cannot stand on its own two feet. So without Western money, today it isn’t a country. At the moment there’s no economic activity that we can effectively integrate into European economic activity: it’s in ruins. And in the agricultural sector, where there is production, the Ukrainian economy isn’t compatible with the European agricultural economy, but clashes with it – it comes into conflict with it. So these are important considerations: while we’re talking about the Hungarian economy, growth, jobs and so on, we mustn’t forget that we’re talking about another country that’s unable to sustain itself, that needs constant Western financial support, and that has an economy that doesn’t fit into the European system. Therefore when we talk about the Hungarian economy we must always keep one eye on Ukraine and on Brussels. As far as the Hungarian economy is concerned, I’m cautiously bullish – but I still say that we’re going to have a fantastic year in 2025. But I always talk about the economy by putting things in their proper order; and so we mustn’t rush ahead of ourselves. So we must always reiterate the most important objectives. After all, the most important goal is that everyone has a job. And I can see that in 2025 everyone who wants to work will have a job. The second thing is that they must be able to support their families from work, from their earnings. This will be possible, because wages will increase, and in 2025 people will find it easier to support their families than they did in 2024. For us 2024 was spent in somehow making up for the losses caused by the war in 2023. In 2023 there was a huge energy shock. This put the Hungarian economy in a difficult situation, it put people in a difficult situation, families in a difficult situation, and companies in a difficult situation. What we lost in 2023 we had to regain in 2024; we did that, and this is why we have a good starting position for 2025. So the second most important thing is that everyone can support their families through work. The third is that everyone feels they can move forward. So they’re working not only to avoid falling back, but to move forward. Speaking in sociological language, in the language of sociology, I could call this “middle classisation”. So 2025 will be the year of a strengthening middle class. There are all sorts of definitions of this, but when I talk about it, in my mind I see people who own their own homes, own their own cars, have an independent income, and support their families through work: they have enough income to support their families, so they can get by on their money until the end of the month. This describes the lower middle class, and then there are those above this. And for those below this, we have to help them into this way of life, into the middle-class way of life. So in 2025 economic policy will be about strengthening the middle class and helping those below it into the middle class. This was happening very well before COVID: in Hungary before COVID this was the dominant societal process. The starting points are good. As I’ve mentioned, I look at two things. The first of these is how many people are in work. The employment rate for people in the age group between 20 and 65 is above 80 per cent – which puts us fifth or sixth in Europe. So in Hungary a lot of people are working and a lot of people are supporting themselves through work. And the second starting point is savings. I regularly look at the financial figures, and I see that the savings rate tells you what percentage of your income you can put aside for future consumption; and in Hungary this is in the region of 24 per cent, while in the EU as a whole it’s 14 per cent. So this means that in Hungary there’s a system of family financial reserves that can be set in motion in 2025. This is what economists call consumption, but it’s not just that: it’s quite simply that there’s not only a desire and a need in people to move forward, but that through their savings they’ve already taken earlier steps to be able to do so. So this is why I say that 2025 could be a fantastic year for the Hungarian economy – and by this I don’t mean the economy in the abstract, but families. So in 2025 I expect to see tangible progress at all levels of society.
You’ve mentioned Ukraine as a threat to the Hungarian economy in the future, but we can see that there are storm clouds in the sky: gas prices have risen, there are threats to the TurkStream pipeline, and the German economy has shrunk for two years in a row – something which has only happened once in the last 75 years. What do you see as the biggest threats to the economic recovery, and how can we avoid them?
Energy prices. We can start by assuming that the war will no longer be approaching us, because Donald Trump is approaching, he’s on his way. Assuming that this threat is significantly reduced and discounting it, then I think the biggest threat we have to watch out for is that of energy prices. So in order to reduce energy prices we have to prevent Brussels from pursuing a sanctions policy, or we should abolish the sanctions policy that we’ve been pursuing so far. As far as Hungary is concerned, we’re at the mercy of the energy sector until the Paks II project is built – and this work on the nuclear plant will be completed between 2030 and 2032. Therefore energy prices – a large-scale increase in energy prices – could put a brake on our economic plans. This is why I call it the biggest threat. We need an intelligent energy policy. It’s no accident that Ukraine has stopped deliveries – gas deliveries – through Ukrainian territory. And although some years ago we built an alternative southern route, now I see that they’re trying to close that down too. We must use every means – and I mean every means – to prevent this artery of the Hungarian economy from being cut off. TurkStream must be protected, it must be kept operational, otherwise our economic plans won’t be realised.
I’ve been asking Prime Minister Viktor Orbán questions about the impact of Donald Trump’s presidency, the situation in the European Union, and the prospects for the Hungarian economy.