Zsolt Törőcsik: Welcome from Cluj/Kolozsvár, and greetings to Prime Minister Viktor Orbán. Good morning.
Good morning.
We’re talking to each other here because nearby the RMDSZ [Democratic Alliance of Hungarians in Romania] is holding its congress today, in which you’re also participating. Why did you feel it was important to be here at today’s congress?
I come here from time to time. I can’t attend every RMDSZ congress, but I believe it’s the duty of the Hungarian prime minister to participate in the major events of Hungarian organisations abroad, if possible. I don’t only come here to Transylvania/Erdély, but also to Vojvodina/Vajdaság and sometimes to Felvidék [in Slovakia]. I’m honoured by the invitation, and we’re fortunate and honoured that the Prime Minister of Romania, Mr. Bolojan, will also be here.
Does this also mean some kind of bilateral meeting – or even progress – in Hungarian–Romanian relations?
It always means something like that. Given the history of the two countries, it’s difficult to imagine a more complicated relationship; I don’t know if there’s a more complicated relationship between two nations anywhere in Europe. So, with such a historical past, when there’s peace and cooperation it’s not a given, and not due to chance, but rather a decision. And we Hungarians want to live in peace and cooperation with our neighbours. This decision must be made every day and upheld every day. And when Romania has a prime minister who thinks similarly, and Prime Minister Bolojan is from Oradea/Nagyvárad, then we must seize the opportunity to improve cooperation.
In an interview a few days ago, the President of the RMDSZ said that for the next two years the goal is to build community and help people stay in their homelands. At the same time, we can see that Romania is in a difficult economic situation. In this situation, how can the Hungarian government help the community achieve its goals?
First of all, we wish the Romanian government every success. Perhaps city dwellers also understand this, but villagers know that the value of your property is determined not only by the size of your plot and the construction of your house, but also by who your neighbours are; and a sloppy, disordered, impoverished neighbour with a chaotic lifestyle will also devalue your property. If your neighbour is tidy, successful, forward-looking and willing to cooperate with you, then your property will also be worth more. Therefore we have an interest in Romania’s economic success not only for basic Christian and humanitarian reasons, but also for our own self-interest. Moreover, Romania is one of our key trading partners, and the more money Romanians have, the better the functioning of Romanian–Hungarian trade. At the moment the situation here isn’t easy. It’s not my place to comment on the Romanian economy, but I can safely say that the frivolous, malicious – and perhaps ignorant – boasting that constantly seeks to undermine the Hungarian government with claims of how much better the Romanians are doing is, in my opinion, at an end. If anyone brings such things up, I suggest they look across the border and see what the reality is. There’s a major battle going on here to restore financial balance to the economy, which is a very painful process, and politically a very serious professional challenge. So the RMDSZ, which also has a position of responsibility in the current Romanian government, has its hands full. I wish the Romanian prime minister and the RMDSZ ministers every success.
Given the state of the Romanian economy and how it got to this point, what lessons for the economic situation in Hungary can be learned from this?
I repeat that when talking about another country we must be cautious – even if it’s our neighbour, no matter what. In this case, politics has caused problems for the economy. So if there’s no stability, no predictability, no long-term planning, if people or parties underestimate the value and virtue of stability and balance, then that leads to improvisation, erratic moves and short-term economic decisions. Many seemingly popular short-term economic decisions, when added up, tend to result in major economic problems. I’ve been a Member of Parliament for thirty-five years, and since then I’ve been observing the economic policies of our neighbours. I remember very successful periods in Romanian economic policy – and I also remember difficult times, such as the present. The Prime Minister of Romania is a very experienced and highly respected person. So, after having been a very good local political leader, if there’s anyone who, based on their life experience, has a chance to straighten out this slightly crooked haystack, then Prime Minister Bolojan is that person.
Meanwhile, a new economic measure has also come into force in Hungary, with a fixed 3 per cent loan available to businesses. But at the same time, recent data shows us that orders in German industry, for example, have fallen for the fourth month in a row. In the current international economic environment, how much demand can there be for this new loan, and who is it actually intended for, according to the Government’s plans?
It seems that in Hungarian economic policy right now the magic number is three, as we’ve also launched a 3 per cent home loan for those looking to buy their first flat or house. Interest has been enormous, and now we’ve launched a loan for businesses with 3 per cent interest. I don’t like to take credit for other people’s work, that’s not fair – so I have to say that we owe a lot to the Chamber of Commerce and Industry. I’m personally grateful to President Elek Nagy and to those who participated in its development. The detailed rules are always much more difficult than the general rules, and we’re providing this loan through the Széchenyi Card system – which was created by the Chamber of Commerce and Industry back in the time of Sándor Demján, and which has been operating ever since. So this wouldn’t be possible on its own; for this credit scheme to work the representatives of businesses are needed. The maximum amount available is 150 million forints. With a central bank base rate of between 6 and 7 per cent, which means that market loans are only available above this rate, I think there are many small and medium-sized entrepreneurs in Hungary that are hungry for a bearable, affordable, manageable 3 per cent loan. I think this will give small and medium-sized enterprises a major boost. In general, I have to say... Meanwhile, tax reduction programmes for families are continuing. People say all sorts of things, good and bad, about the Hungarian economy; but the fact is that currently the Hungarian economy is in a position in which it can simultaneously launch a fixed 3 per cent home loan, a fixed 3 per cent small and medium-sized enterprise loan, and implement Europe’s largest tax cuts. Well, an economy that’s capable of doing this can’t be in bad shape.
Why are small and medium-sized enterprises now the focus of attention? They are, after all, the focus of the previously launched Sándor Demján Programme, and [Minister for National Economy] Márton Nagy has promised further tax breaks and less bureaucracy.
First of all, we’re Hungarians, and the majority of Hungarians who aren’t employees work in the economy as operators of small and medium-sized enterprises. And the big players – especially the large international companies operating in Hungary – can take advantage of cheaper loans from abroad. This means that a German, Austrian or Italian company can take out cheaper loans in euros at home or from its domestic bank. Therefore they don’t need credit assistance. The ones who are always in trouble are us Hungarians, Hungarian small and medium-sized enterprises. So we must always think of them first.
You mentioned that you’re considering further tax cuts, both for families and businesses. At the same time, recently plans for tax increases have been leaked from the Tisza Party – something which the party itself officially denies. Why would Tisza have an interest in raising taxes?
There’s a fundamental debate in Hungarian public life that I’ve observed and experienced over the past thirty-five years. Among economists, economic policymakers and political parties, there’s always been a tendency to want higher taxes. They’ve always hated flat-rate taxation. I’m not exaggerating when I say that it makes them vomit blood. They like to engage in social engineering, which means they like to take money away from companies and people and then redistribute it according to their own ideas of fairness. This philosophy exists. I don’t share it. I belong to a different school of thought. I say that the best economic policy is a policy of low taxes, and that it should be simple, predictable and easy to calculate. So let’s say you earn ten times more than someone else; then you’ll pay ten times more, ten times more tax. Then we’re even, and you’ve fulfilled your obligation to the community. Because everyone has to pay some taxes, otherwise nothing that satisfies collective needs – from defence to public order to transport – can function. All taxes must be paid – but they should be low, and we shouldn’t interfere in people’s lives. It’s good if they decide what they want to do with their money. When in Hungary the state tries to determine this, it has typically led to problems. This isn’t the case in every country; people often refer to the Scandinavians, but they’re a different kind of people. In our country, good economic policy leaves money with the people, leaves power with the people, and leaves room for manoeuvre so that people can live and do what they think is right and good. I think this is the first reason for the debate. The Tisza Party belongs to the previous philosophy, an old school – they’re Lajos Bokros, György Surányi, Mária Zita Petschnig. They feel close to that school of economics. But there’s another reason they want to collect more money from the people: this is an instruction from Brussels. The Tisza Party is a Brussels project – it was conceived in Brussels and created in Brussels. I’ve been told that it was created to replace the Hungarian national government with a Brussels-friendly – and now Ukrainian-friendly – government, and that money is needed for Ukraine. So I’m sitting there at the Council of Prime Ministers, and there’s no money. Meanwhile, they want to give money to Ukraine, because they want to win the war against the Russians on the front line. And that requires money. Since there’s no money, it has to be collected from somewhere. They have several ideas. One is to take it from Europeans – for example Hungarians – through higher taxes, and send the money to Ukraine. The Tisza Party is a pro-Ukrainian party, a Brussels project, so if it were in government it would implement this Brussels directive. But since it isn’t in government, and hopefully won’t be, it can’t take money from Hungarians – either now or in the future.
Well, based on what you’ve said, it seems – and this has been the case in recent years – that the Government has a very clear position on tax issues. Nevertheless, a national consultation has been launched on this issue, and there’s also the question of reducing household energy bills. If what you’re offering the Hungarian people is so clear, what are you expecting from the consultation?
In the coming weeks, in Brussels there will be enormous pressure on Hungary to contribute to Ukraine’s membership of the European Union and to contribute more money to Ukraine’s financial support. But Hungary – at least the Hungarian government – doesn’t want this at all, and neither do I. We don’t want to take more money from the people, and consequently we don’t want to send more money to Brussels or Ukraine. This is a major international battle that must be won, and the Government needs support to do so – and in this the consultation will strengthen the Government’s policy of representing the national interest. On the other hand, the Tisza Party – and perhaps DK [Democratic Coalition] as well – think and say that they don’t want to talk about these issues and don’t want to reveal their plans in this regard before the election. They said that they shouldn’t talk about it because then they’d lose the election, which is bad news for them, but we’re not so sorry about that; and they’ve said that after the elections, “If we win, anything is possible.” This means that the most important issue, the issue of taxation, the issue of public burden sharing, would remain unclear. This isn’t good. What’s good is for people to see clearly and transparently. Then they can decide! Then, once they’ve decided, they’ll live with the consequences. This is true for elections, and not just for choosing a wife.
Other plans have also been made public by the Tisza Party. In speeches behind closed doors, for example, there’s been talk of rethinking the number of hospital beds and schools, and strong opinions about farmers have been voiced. What do you think these statements, which were made in private forums, refer to?
We’re talking about things of a different nature. I’ll recap the debates of the past thirty-five years. There’s always been debate about what should happen to Hungarian agriculture, and there’s always been a view – usually espoused by the city slickers, the guys from central Budapest – that agriculture belongs to the past, that it’s not modern, that in a truly serious national economy what are more important are industry or services, and that the entire countryside and its villages represent a backward way of life that we should move beyond. There’s always been this clamour, this programme, this idea, and the Bokros Package [of the mid 1990s] consisted entirely of such measures. And this is why the Left, continuing this tradition, now says that Hungarian agriculture can’t compete with Ukrainian agriculture. That’s what they say, and as you’ve heard I’ve just quoted it: they say it’s better to hand Hungarian agriculture over to the Ukrainians, so we won’t have to deal with it. That’s a complete misunderstanding! It shows a lack of knowledge of Hungarian history and the Hungarian mentality. Hungary can’t exist without agriculture. Hungary can’t exist without farmers. Hungary can’t exist without the countryside. Hungary can’t exist without villages. Even if, from the concrete of the city centre, it sometimes seems that we could do without the villagers, that isn’t the case. Hungary is a large organic unit: we need everyone, including the city slickers – but we also need our farmers running agriculture. We won’t hand over anything. Hungarian agriculture must be protected, and Ukraine poses a very serious threat to Hungarian agriculture. If Ukraine were to be admitted, which we’re trying to prevent, Hungarian agriculture would face challenges that could contribute to the ruin of hundreds of thousands of farmers. The other issue is the closure of hospitals and schools. This has also always been around – we’re talking about the heirs of the Bokros Package. They’ve always believed that major reforms are needed, that our education system isn’t efficient enough, that our healthcare system isn’t efficient enough, and that they need to be transformed – and in plain language such transformation always means that they’ll start closing schools, hospital wards, hospitals, and so on. For fifteen years I’ve been fighting to make high-quality education available for the children of every family in Hungary; and if someone gets into trouble because their health fails or something happens to them, then high-quality health care should be within easy reach. So we mustn’t close them down, but strengthen them. County hospitals in particular need to be strengthened. Now I see that they want to cut back on county hospitals or close them down, because they’re talking about seven large hospitals in regional centres. Such a healthcare system is completely different from ours, and it would take health care far away from the people. In our opinion we need eighteen very strong county hospitals, in addition to those in Budapest. We’ve been building this system for more than ten years.
This week the leaks from Tisza have included not only recordings but also data. The party denied this for days, then finally admitted it; but according to them, you – or, as they put it, the powers that be – have attacked them. How clear is our view of this matter, and what’s shown by the information available so far?
We see things perfectly clearly – but we don’t need to see, we need to hear: The Ukrainians have made it clear. In Hungary there are political debates that seem rather simplistic because elsewhere others are openly stating – in their own voice reflecting to their own intentions – the very things we’re still just speculating about. So the Ukrainians are leaving little doubt as to what they want. They say that they want to draw Europe into the war, at any cost. Today there’s one obstacle to this, and that is Hungary. The Ukrainians say that they want to join NATO at any cost. We’ve prevented this. Meanwhile the American president has won, and the book on that adventure story has been closed – hopefully for a long time. The Ukrainians aren’t joking: they’re straightforwardly saying that they want to join the European Union at any cost. Hungary does not want this. The Ukrainians clearly say that they need money. They need money for the army, they can’t support their own state, and they can’t pay pensions and salaries. So they need money. They say it straight out: “Give us money!” There’s an obstacle to this – it’s called Hungary. That’s why the Ukrainians have said with their own mouths that there needs to be a change of government in Hungary. Brussels and Ukraine are cooperating on this: “There should be a change of government in Hungary, and instead of a national government, there should be a government that’s friendly to Brussels and Ukraine, so let’s help those who want to establish such a government in Hungary.” And many in Brussels believe that then Ukraine’s fate – and the fate of the European Union – will also take a turn for the better. I doubt that the fate of the Union would take a turn for the better, but I’m convinced that the fate of the Hungarians would certainly take a turn for the worse. This is why the Ukrainians are actively working to bring about a change of government in Hungary. Their intelligence service is here, dug in deep. Of course we’re tracking them and we can see what’s happening. They’ve infiltrated Hungarian intellectual life, they’ve infiltrated the world of Hungarian advisors, they’ve infiltrated Hungarian political debates, and they have their own party. The Tisza Party is a pro-Ukrainian party, their party, and so they’ll do everything they can to help Tisza get into government. They’re helping them in every way – for example by providing technological assistance. In modern politics digital access is a key issue, and they’re being given help with this. For example, they’re being taught skills that are really necessary for a successful election campaign, and they’ve received this help. We Hungarians can only say that in the past we used to say that the Russians were in our pantry, but now we have to say that the Ukrainians are in our smartphones.
What are the risks associated with this – both for those whose data has been leaked, and from a national security perspective?
It’s no coincidence that every country protects its most sensitive data. If they know too much about you, more than necessary and in greater depth, they can use it against you. That’s why no country ever shares with another country personal data or data that’s important for national security. There’s a good reason for this. We shouldn’t do this either. We’re on top of this whole issue, and when someone oversteps the boundaries of the law, the Hungarian state will of course take action in the interests of national security. For now I feel sorry for those Tisza members whose data is now in Ukrainian hands. I hope they won’t suffer too much personally as a result.
Another development this week concerning Tisza is that the European Parliament didn’t waive Péter Magyar’s immunity. Many MEPs argued that the politician is being subjected to politically motivated persecution in Hungary. But you believe that he’s under their thumb. What motivations do you see behind this Brussels decision?
First of all, anyone who knows Hungary – and we Hungarians know it – will laugh at this. In this country, everyone says what they want when it comes to politics – and apparently they can even do what they want. He can also call on help from Ukraine and Brussels. So to claim that anyone in Hungary is being persecuted for their opinions or political activities is not only utter nonsense, but also foolish, revealing a total ignorance of reality. The immunity issue you’re talking about isn’t a political issue: it’s a matter of common law, involving theft and perhaps disorderly conduct. But that’s not what’s important; what’s important in this whole story is that, having invested so much money and energy in the Tisza Party, the Brusselites don’t want to lose their investment. And if they have to hand over their man in legal proceedings, that will certainly reduce their chances of winning the next election. So they’re chasing after getting something for their money. No matter what Tisza and its president do, whatever they do, they’ll never waive his immunity, because that’s the string they’re pulling to keep him moving, like a puppet. Why would they do that? Why would they give that up? They’ve invested a lot of money and energy in finally having a Brusselite party in Hungary. This is what’s happening. I find it shameful. It’s a mockery of everything that European politics has ever stood for. But there’s trouble in Europe, and a major power struggle is also taking place in Brussels. Therefore, in terms of the power struggle in Brussels also, importance is attached to the Hungarian card, to who will be the Hungarian prime minister, and to who will form the Hungarian government. This is the ruthless world we now find ourselves in. Forget European values and the rule of law – this is about their dog’s puppy, which they won’t give up.
And they didn’t waive the immunity of Ilaria Salis either. She’s the Antifa activist who beat people up while on a rampage in Budapest a couple of years ago. What message does this send?
Well, the same! This shows the kind of trouble Europe is in. What are we talking about here, after all? We’re talking about an Italian woman who came here with a few of her mates. They’re insane leftists! Let’s be honest! They’re Antifa types, violent, aggressive, and with a completely deranged idea of what constitutes correct, acceptable and desirable forms of coexistence among people. And anyone they thought was far-Right based on their clothing or appearance – I don’t know how they determined that, but that’s their problem – was attacked in the street with iron bars and all kinds of objects designed for violence. They attacked Hungarian people on Hungarian streets – with violence! We have, of course, investigated this, and we’ll hunt them down one by one, because attacking Hungarians in Hungary based on some vague idea is unacceptable. There’s also a German citizen, and a similar debate is going on there. We identified this Italian lady, arrested her, and she was in Hungary for a while. But then the Italian Left gave her a seat in the European Parliament through the European elections – which shows how the world has turned upside down. She became a Member of Parliament in Brussels, and – just as with Péter Magyar – the leftists in Brussels won’t hand her over, because she’s also their dog’s puppy. This is why we’re unable to satisfy the basic requirement of justice – which is that if you come to Hungary, you cannot harm Hungarians. But sooner or later, we’ll enforce this for both the Italian and German individuals.
We have very little time left, but let’s talk about two more important pieces of news. One is that this year – earlier than ever before, at the end of September – the number of visitors to Hungary exceeded fifteen million. Why is this, and what prospects does it offer for Hungarian tourism?
Those involved in tourism seem to be doing a good job, and I commend them for that. Tourism never grows on its own – it takes a lot of hard work. It’s a difficult profession: there are no set working hours, and in high season you have to work day and night. And I can see that the owners, investors, employees, hotel staff, restaurant staff and people who run tourist attractions are doing a great job, because the tourists are arriving. This is the greatest recognition a profession and an employee can receive. Demand for their services is clearly growing, so I congratulate them. Tourism now accounts for 13 per cent of Hungary’s total gross domestic product. So, beyond their personal success, I hope they’re being paid properly, because this is also an important achievement for the Hungarian economy as a whole.
And perhaps the most important news for us yesterday was that László Krasznahorkai received the Nobel Prize in Literature. He’s the second Hungarian to receive the award in this category. What does this mean for Hungarian culture and Hungary?
It’s huge. We were celebrating yesterday. Every Nobel Prize is of special significance to Hungary – just like Olympic gold medals. A country like ours is constantly under pressure to perform. It’s very difficult to answer the question of why Hungarians are in the world at all, and we have only one truly serious answer: we’re in the world because we’re talented, we’re hard-working, and we deliver the kind of performance that the world needs. We also say – and in this I hope I’m not mistaken – that Hungarians have given more to humanity than they’ve received from it. Others in the same category range from the saints of the Árpád dynasty, through Öcsi [Ferenc] Puskás, to Imre Kertész – our first Hungarian Nobel Prize winner in literature before László Krasznahorkai – or our scientists who won the Nobel Prize in medicine and physics two years ago. Regardless of stylistic trends, literary taste, and even political opinion, this matter shouldn’t be viewed through a party-political or political lens – because I wouldn’t call László Krasznahorkai a writer who belongs to the core of Fidesz voters. But that’s completely irrelevant now, and we must look at it through a national lens: it’s a tremendous achievement that one of our countrymen has won the Nobel Prize in Literature. A tremendous amount of work has gone into this, and we congratulate him!
I’ve been asking Prime Minister Viktor Orbán about subjects including support for businesses, the national consultation, and the case of data leaked from the Tisza Party.