Gyula Tarczy: Prime Minister, we warmly welcome you to Nyíregyháza and Szabolcs–Szatmár–Bereg County. Allow me to extend my warmest greetings to the best audience in the country: those who have come from the city and the county, and all those who are watching this conversation on television…
Good afternoon.
…in which the most topical question is what you’ve been negotiating. It’s no secret that you’ve come to Nyíregyháza from Moscow – preceded, of course, by a trip to Washington a few weeks ago. When we talk about energy security and politics the two are closely related – so much so, that in a video post a few days before you left for Russia, you said that the advantages discussed there must be filled with content. You said, “There must be oil.” Prime Minister, will we have enough oil?
Good afternoon, everyone, Ladies and Gentlemen. I did indeed arrive on the Moscow–Nyíregyháza flight, which is much longer than you might think – because in theory it should be a two-hour flight, but since no one wants to risk their life unnecessarily, it doesn’t fly in a straight line. For understandable reasons…
How long did it take?
...you have to make a detour, and that takes six hours. Because you have to avoid Ukraine, the Black Sea is dangerous, you have to go down south, towards Turkey...
So it takes six hours there and six hours back.
It took six hours to get there. We left at four in the morning, and I arrived back at night, and it took six hours to get back. So yesterday I spent twelve hours in the air, yes. Considering that, I’m in good shape, so we’ll get the job done here this afternoon. So, oil – there will be oil. Indeed I did have to negotiate two contracts recently, and I can’t say that they were with partners in the same weight division as us. One was in America, to withdraw or grant an exemption from the sanctions in the coming period that will affect energy supplied by certain Russian companies. Watch out later for news from Romania, Bulgaria and Serbia, who don’t have this and who have been unable to negotiate this exemption. It’s good to have a piece of paper saying that your energy supplies won’t be cut off, but you still need the energy supply itself, and that’s in Russian hands. You’re probably following the news as well: there have been ever more military strikes on Russian territory, usually targeting Russian refineries and energy facilities. So it’s impossible to know how much we’ll have this winter – it will depend on the war. We needed to get a guarantee: we needed to get a guarantee from the Russian president that whatever happens in Russia, the amount of gas and oil we contracted for will arrive in Hungary this winter and next year. We managed to agree on that, so this year we can maintain the lowest household energy bills in Europe.
A few years ago, a picture of you sitting at either end of a long table made the rounds in the world press. Now the table looked much smaller.
I have an observation that I’d like to share with you. Regardless of whether it’s in the East or the West, the larger a country is, the more its leader fears illness. For example, I have a serious condition: for obvious reasons my vocal cords are worn out, which is why my voice sounds raspy. For every meeting I have to prepare, so that during the meeting I won’t sneeze, clear my throat or blow my nose, but sit there at the negotiating table as a completely healthy person, posing no danger whatsoever. This is an important part of my preparation. The table was shorter this time, but the truth is that the long table was more of a symbol; because – and I don’t know if this interests those present here – for every negotiation with a country that’s much larger, more powerful and more influential than ours, I also have to prepare myself in another way. One mustn’t negotiate with a feeling of inferiority. And it’s quite a task to imagine yourself as an equal to, say, the American president – or, say, to the President of Russia, to the leader of a country that size. That’s also a task. And yet you have to find that point, that thought, that feeling that you can latch onto, so that when you negotiate, when you negotiate well, you’re not negotiating from a position of subordination or with a feeling of inferiority, but with a strength that you don’t have. And since you don’t really have that strength, because your gross domestic product is what it is, your army is what it is, and in terms of real power factors you’re at a much lower level, you always have to find something fundamentally spiritual in nature. This enables you to think and believe that you, as a Hungarian, are negotiating as an equal partner. When I go to America, say, it’s easier. Next year America will celebrate the 250th anniversary of its founding. Great! Fantastic achievement! Fantastic – 250 years! But I come from a country that’s 1,100 years old.
Just now...
Sorry, but it’s not easy with the Russians either, because you have to take a spiritual position there too. Of course, you show respect, but how do we stand with the Russians? They came up against us three times, didn’t they? In 1849, when we almost defeated the Habsburgs. Then came the First World War. The Second World War was a little more difficult, because we went there first – to the Don Bend, didn’t we? What were we doing there? But then they just overran us, and what happened happened. And as a continuation of that, we even suffered in 1956. That’s the situation. It’s because they’re stronger. But who owns Hungary today? We do, don’t we? So what I’m trying to say is that whatever international situation you find yourself in, it’s very important to represent your country with dignity – without any pomposity, with dignity and with self-respect. If you don’t have that, you’ll lose the negotiations on oil, on everything – you’ll lose everything. Because the secret to everything – including politics – is mental strength and self-respect. If you have it, you can win. If you don’t, you can’t win.
Just now you started your introduction talking about weight division rankings. This was a negotiation that wasn’t followed by a press conference. We were able to get some information from a few pictures and videos. But what was it like inside this marathon series of meetings, lasting four and a half hours, in which serious matters were on the table? And, if I may ask, what was President Putin like?
We’re talking about a former KGB agent who rose to the top. That’s a powerful type of political school ; so these are very well trained people. It’s no secret, everyone knows that he was a Russian intelligence agent stationed in Germany. So, no matter what we read, it’s definitely worth knowing that he’s an exceptionally well prepared man who knows every dossier in depth. The American president negotiates in a completely different way, focusing on strategic issues without interest in thick dossiers – he’s interested in the three important goals that are at the top of the agenda. The Russian president isn’t like that. He has a different background, so he also knows the dossiers in depth. That’s one. Two: I don’t know what it’s like with the others, so I don’t want to generalise, but we Hungarians are a strange breed. There’s a large Slavic sea there, in which they make up the majority. He’s often told me that once in the old days, in the communist era, he visited Transcarpathia; and in the evenings he’d see Hungarians sitting on small benches in front of their houses, wearing well-ironed white shirts, black waistcoats, and hats. And then he realised that this world was different from the one he’d come from. And indeed, if you remember, even I remember from my youth, people really did sit on little benches in neat white shirts – even the women. And we even have a song about it, don’t we? They sat there on the benches and enjoyed socialising. So the Russian president understands that we’re not Slavs, and our villages look different from theirs, our cultural quality is different from theirs, there’s this language they don’t have a clue about, it’s so inaccessible. So he knows all this. And, of course, people are always freer with their own kind than with foreign peoples, and so there’s a fundamental respect that isn’t directed at me, nor at the Hungarian government: it’s for the cultural phenomenon that they interpret as “the Hungarians who are somewhere out there”. And as much as possible they strive to ensure that we don’t deceive each other. It’s important to note that Russians have experienced the past thirty to forty years as a period of constant deception. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union they’ve been promised things that never materialised, and in the end they lost out and were deceived. This is why their counterparts’ trustworthiness matters to them. And I make use of this card, or of this position. I first negotiated with him in 2009, and since 2009 I’ve concluded God knows how many dozens of agreements. We’ve fulfilled all of them – even those that were uncomfortable and difficult to fulfil. All of them! And I have to say that on the other side, the Russians have fully complied with every agreement we’ve made. I’m confident that we can continue in this way. I think it’s crucial for Hungary that the great powers don’t view us as if our word has no great significance and can be disregarded, but instead that they view us as if what’s been agreed with the Hungarians must be honoured – because that’s the custom, that’s good, and so on and so forth. And this is the case now. The most important thing I can say about the Russian president is that this works. Now, of course, there’s this war; and when it comes to interpreting it, the story unfolding before our eyes in Western Europe is completely different from the one the Russians see. And a third version is unfolding before our eyes. Europeans think that the Russians attacked the Ukrainians, that they’re big and strong, that they’ll swallow them up, and that once they’ve swallowed up the Ukrainians, they’ll move on, and in the end they’ll swallow us up, then Germany – so they’ll swallow up everyone. The Russian interpretation, on the other hand, is that they lost the Soviet Union and came to an agreement with the West in 1990 – which the West didn’t honour, because countries that belonged to the former Soviet empire or Soviet sphere of influence – such as Hungary – were admitted to NATO. The West denies this, saying that they never promised that this wouldn’t happen – but in any case they admitted the Romanians, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Slovaks, Czechs, Poles, Balts, and so on. The Russians say, “Okay, this has happened, but now the West isn’t satisfied with this, and wants to integrate Ukraine into NATO and the EU.” That would mean moving all its modern weapons to the Russian–Ukrainian border, to Russia’s border. And they say that this is going too far: “This must not happen!” Ukraine may have international rights, there’s no doubt about that, but the Russians won’t respect them because they also have the right to their own security and don’t want to be neighbours with NATO member countries. So they’ll prevent this by force of arms if necessary: “Thank you very much!” This is their interpretation of the war. My interpretation – or the Hungarian interpretation, if I may say so – is that we need a European security balance. It’s also important to ask who’s right and whose story is true or not, but that’s secondary. What interests us is what will happen in the future; and we need a balance of power in Europe that allows us Hungarians to live in peace, without military threats hanging over our heads and without any wars hindering our economic development. This is what we need: a European security system. Compared to this, we’re less interested in the future of Ukraine, which is secondary to us, and the future of Russia, which is also secondary; because we have to determine what’s in our own interests from our own perspective. Now everyone’s talking about a ceasefire and peace, but I’m working to ensure that in the end – when the mud in these stirred up waters settles – we’ll find ourselves in a situation that provides Hungary with peace, security, continuous military protection, and opportunities for economic development. If the war ends there, if that’s the outcome of the peace talks, then that’s good. The reason I’m involved in the peace talks isn’t because I’m restless or because I don’t have enough work at home. You’ve just heard Gergő Gulyás talk about how many programmes we’re implementing, such as first-time home ownership and tax cuts. I have plenty of work at home. The reason I think that Hungarians need to get stuck into these peace talks, that we need to be there, is so that in the end, when a new European security system is created, it won’t be one that’s bad for us. To do that we need to be sitting at the table: if you’re not sitting at the table, you’re on the menu. It’s better to be sitting at the table.
Prime Minister, after a few logical steps, we’ve arrived at the main topics of the day – but could we stay with the economy for a moment? To conclude the previous topic: there will be oil, there will be energy security; so can we say that yesterday was a Black Friday – in the original commercial, discount-oriented sense of the term?
Yes, indeed, and more than oil. I can’t talk about everything that was discussed at yesterday’s negotiations – after all, I’m not a member of the Tisza Party.
That wasn’t the question.
But there were parts of the talks that concerned international issues, peace, and US–Russian negotiations, which it would be premature to discuss – and I’m not authorised to do so. Please accept that this is the case. But I also discussed other economic issues. The Hungarian prime minister has another task, in addition to working to create a favourable environment for Hungary; this is to open up space – or at least open doors – for Hungarian companies so that they can thrive in the world. And as a result of the work done over the past fifteen years, there are half a dozen or ten large Hungarian companies that are now able to do good business anywhere in the world. We don’t usually talk about this, but let me give you an example. Since we don’t have oil or gas, over ten years ago the Government came up with a brilliant idea: let’s buy some. If there are no oil fields in Hungary, let’s buy some. We went to Azerbaijan and bought some. We don’t have gas fields either, so we went to Kazakhstan and bought some – sometimes MVM was involved, sometimes MOL, but we bought them. And there are opportunities like this in the world – especially now that, due to US sanctions, the Russians have to sell a lot of their assets outside Russia’s borders. This is what’s happening. There’s a big international race to see who will sell and how. As I was sitting there with the Russian president, I thought, well, maybe something there… And I can say that we opened the door to two or three serious, major deals. What people in MOL and others then negotiate is a commercial matter, not the Hungarian government’s business; but in some respects, in some cases, the door is open, and I hope that Hungarian companies will make serious transactions in the coming period.
Thank you. A few weeks ago you sat at another table – in fact at the head of the table, with a large delegation in Washington. In a sense that laid the foundations for yesterday’s series of talks, as we mentioned in the introduction. What do you consider to be the greatest achievement of the series of talks in Washington, which people are trying to explain in various ways?
What do I expect in the coming period? From this it’s clear why it was important that, in addition to Hungary having the lowest household energy bills in Europe, we also needed the consent of the Americans. We’ve obtained this. What else is there? Beyond this, there’s also the question of what the Brusselites are doing to us. We’re among friends, so we can talk about this openly. Brussels wants a pro-Brussels government in Hungary. The fact that Hungary has national interests is causing a lot of trouble in Brussels, and we’re not willing to subordinate Hungary’s national interests to the interests of some kind of Brussels bureaucracy. The best example is migration. They’ve decided to turn Europe – the whole of Europe – into a continent of immigrants. Why they came to this conclusion merits a separate presentation, but that’s what they decided. So the migrants aren’t breaking in – they’re being let in. To use an ugly expression they’re being “managed” by Brussels; because if they didn’t want them to be there, they wouldn’t be there – because if Hungary can succeed in keeping them out, then Brussels can too, as they’re much bigger than us. They’re not solving the problem because they don’t want to solve it. And they’ve decided that Europe will be a continent that welcomes immigrants. We Hungarians have discussed this issue among ourselves. We’re the only ones, by the way, where it wasn’t the elite who decided what should happen, but who openly discussed it among ourselves. There was even a referendum, and we said: “People, this will determine not only the future of our grandchildren, but also that of our great-grandchildren. This mustn’t be decided by a dozen or so members of a newly elected government: a referendum, a debate.” The Hungarian people, myself included, decided that we won’t become a country of immigrants. This is contrary to what Brussels represents. They’re doing everything they can to make the entire continent a welcoming, immigrant-friendly continent – but we’ve opted out of that. And I could give you many more examples. For example, in the whole gender issue, in Hungary respect for the laws and values of natural upbringing and rejection of what I consider to be a twisted form of upbringing. But they want a European continent where, let’s put it this way, perversity and its various forms – various strange things – are not only accepted parts of European life, but are also taught to our children at a young age as the correct way of life. I don’t need to elaborate on these here, as I think you know what we’re talking about. So I consider this an attack on my own children and grandchildren. If someone writes a book aimed at children featuring “Csipke Józsika” [a gender non-conforming character supportive of LGBTQ relations], that’s not a political issue. I respect women and so forth, but that’s an assault on our children. Anyone who writes and distributes such a book is doing something to our children that I simply cannot comprehend, and it takes great effort from me to deal with it without anger. This kind of thing must not happen! This must not happen in Hungary! But Brussels thinks that Europe should be a continent like this. And I could go on. Economic issues. Brussels has many ideas, thoughts and beliefs about what, in certain matters, Europe as a whole should be like. Now the war is like that too: now everyone should be pro-war. But we aren’t. This is why we’re in conflict with Brussels. And Brussels is doing everything it can to ensure that Hungary has a pro-Brussels government. This is the fundamental dimension of Hungarian politics. Of course, there’s the Left and the Right, there’s distribution based on pro-market or pro-state principles, there are tax increasers and tax cutters. These are all important issues. But I can locate myself within the basic coordinate system of what’s happening in Hungary today. This is about the fact that there are forces that serve Brussels. Some who represent these forces are doing so out of conviction – there may even be some of these. Others are doing so for money. Some are following orders to transform Hungary in the way that the Brusselites want, to steer Hungary back onto the Brusselite path. And we say that we have our own country, our own understanding of life, our own way of life, and we want to organise our lives in the Hungarian way. Thank you and a good day! These are the two options – when you go to vote, you can choose between these two. It’s also true that if you vote for the Left, you’ll be heavily taxed and your tax allowances will be taken away, as they were before. So there’s a predictable left-wing plan. Think back to Ildikó Lendvai, when in 2002 I said that her party would increase household energy bills. “No, there won’t be. I’ll say it slowly, so that even Viktor Orbán understands: there will be no gas price increase.” It’s the same thing – they’re denying it, but if we let them in, they’ll do it the next morning. That’s one thing. And then the people of Budapest – who are the least supportive of us – will really pay the price for these policies. The people of Pest don’t know this yet. They’re a stubborn bunch, Budapest is a left-wing city; and they don’t know that, despite the fact that they don’t like the Right and they’ll be voting for the Left, they’d be the worst off if the Left won. Because with the wealth tax, the people of Pest would be the first to be fleeced. Wealth declarations would hurt them the most, because the wealth gap between Eastern Hungary and Budapest is still obvious. I say all this as an aside. These are all important issues, but for me the most important thing isn’t this, but that we shouldn’t allow Brussels to decide what kind of government Hungary has, and that the most important issues affecting our children’s future should be decided not in Brussels, but here in Budapest. That’s the point. This is what Hungarian politics is all about.
Accordingly, is the existence of this particular austerity package or economic plan that you’ve directly or indirectly referred to – which has dominated public discourse for days – real and credible? Could it be that – regardless of one’s attitude, voting intentions, way of thinking, or outlook – some people want something that would hurt everyone equally, or that would be a serious blow to everyone?
I’ve already seen everything that you’ve been reading about in recent days. You don’t read Brussels documents, but it’s all written down in them. So everything that appears in the leaked programme of the Tisza Party has featured in official Brussels documents over the past few years. For example, the fact that taxes in Hungary need to be increased is written in the so-called annual economic recommendations, because Brussels does that every year: for years they’ve been demanding that Hungary increases taxes. They want to abolish the flat-rate tax system and introduce a multi-rate tax system. For years they’ve been demanding that we increase business taxes. They want us to tax pensions, at least widow’s pensions, and to abolish the thirteenth month’s pension. All of this is written in the Brussels documents. This only comes as a surprise to you and those who aren’t involved in international politics, but I’m familiar with all of this. In fact, this leaked document is nothing but a Hungarian translation of the requirements written in Brussels over the past ten years and demanded of Hungary – but which I haven’t complied with and won’t comply with, however hard they try to make me. That wouldn’t be good for Hungarians. I don’t like to talk much about the opposition because it’s boring and lacks quality; and to be honest, I find it difficult to know what to do in a situation where, three or four years ago, the leader of the opposition was saying that young Hungarians have never had it as good as they do nowadays. Compared to that, now the opposition wants to send us to hell for the same thing. It’s difficult to know what to do about that. Perhaps this gives me an opportunity to say a few words about it – because, as you know, they’re following us around. The country’s so small now that we have to be together at the same time in one city. We’re gathering together here in Nyíregyháza because we want to have a good time, don’t we? People like us get together because we want to have a good time, basically we want to arrange a nice weekend. And then, lo and behold, they come along here in the afternoon, don’t they? Well now, their bad intentions are apparent in the choreography itself, aren’t they? Why is it necessary to ruin another community’s nice weekend? Let them go to Kecskemét, then after that we’ll go there while they come here, or something... But it was the same thing in Győr. I just want to say that the opposition – or this new initiative – has only one goal. They’re being paid from Brussels. They’re being supported from Brussels. Their programme was written in Brussels. Brussels is using parliamentary immunity to shield them from Hungarian jurisdiction and the prosecution service. Everything they have is in Brussels, that’s their lifeline. If we want Hungary to give up its independence, give up its sovereignty, and instead of following its own path, trust more in the path that others dictate to us, then that path leads straight to the Tisza Party, and that’s who to vote for. Those who believe that it’s Hungary that knows better what Hungarians need, that we can decide better than anyone else, and that we want to keep our destiny in our own hands, should come to Nyíregyháza, they should join the Right, and support the national government. And with that, I’ve said everything I have to say about the opposition.
Now, returning to the basic theme, since this is an anti-war – or, in other words, a pro-peace – rally, perhaps this takes on a different tone if someone comes to or lives in Nyíregyháza. This is because there’s a country at war within arm’s reach, and an important part of it – important to us – is Transcarpathia. I have acquaintances, including relatives who are teachers, who in their immediate circle have students from Transcarpathia who fled the war with their families or who left their families behind – in some cases being separated for years from fathers who stayed behind. After all this, with many people seeking to downplay the danger of this war’s potential escalation, I’d like to ask your view.
We’re calmly discussing the war here, but in the last half hour dozens of people have died somewhere, in some conflict situation, perhaps in a trench. There’s nothing heroic or romantic about death in war today. This isn’t a Hunyadi film. So it’s not about men facing each other, fighting, the stronger one prevailing and the weaker one falling. You’re sitting there, and suddenly death falls on your head, and you don’t even know where it came from. There’s artillery, there’s shooting, there are rockets, drones: it’s completely different. I say this because we’re talking about it calmly here, in a European context, while Westerners see it all as a game of chess. But this war isn’t a game of chess: it’s a collection of human tragedies, hundreds of thousands of human tragedies. It’s a terrible thing! What’s more, you know your neighbours – they’re Slavs. Slavs are good soldiers, but they’re also ruthless soldiers, and this is true of both sides. So modern warfare is terrible in itself – in which, I repeat, you don’t fall at the hands of your opponents, but death falls from the sky. But beyond that, when there’s contact on the front line, there is cruelty. And now thousands of Ukrainians are trapped there, in one of these fortified cities. So this is a terrible thing. And of course every soldier who dies has a mother, a father, probably a wife, and most likely children. So we’re talking about widows and orphans – and the most horrible thing I can imagine, which is a parent burying their child. It’s an incomprehensible pain. And this happens thousands of times every day. So we’re talking about something truly horrific. And, of course, the American president, who’s often criticised for various reasons, understands that to a Christian this is simply unacceptable. This must somehow be brought to an end. Of course justice is important, and many things are important, but there needs to be a ceasefire as soon as possible, and this has to stop. What’s more, now that the war is being fought with artillery, Transcarpathia is fortunate for various reasons, which we don’t need to discuss here; because death hasn’t fallen from the sky to the same extent there – it’s an area that’s been spared in relative terms. I don’t know if you’ve noticed this. But no one can say how long it will last, how long it can be maintained. And if the war spreads, it will engulf Transcarpathia along with our people. Then it won’t stop at the border, because the border between the two countries is an administrative line, not a physical barrier, and God only knows what will happen after that. I agree with those who say that it’s illogical to think that the Russians will attack Europe, because we’re stronger in every respect. But even so, certain consequences of military action will be felt – perhaps even directly. There have already been incidents over Poland, things have fallen from the sky. Refugees: it won’t be like it is now, with five thousand people coming every day, crossing the Hungarian–Ukrainian border. When the war started, ten thousand were crossing every day. Hundreds of thousands will come! So if war comes in this direction too, it will drive them out of there and bring them all here – with all the consequences that entails. So what I want to say is that here, in Nyírség, people are well aware that this war could very easily directly affect them too – and this is much more the case in Nyírség than in Budapest or Transdanubia. I think you’re well aware of this. I feel this, by the way, I experience this when I talk to your representatives – for example in the Hungarian parliament – when they talk about the war and support me. I feel the difference in passion. Of course, the Pannonians also urge for peace, but when I talk to people from the Nyírség region, you can see that they’re personally affected. This is something important. And anyone who wants to relativise all this – how did you put it? – is being irresponsible. This is the reality, whether or not one likes it – it is here. The only way we can get rid of it is by achieving a ceasefire and peace. This is why, as I mentioned, the Hungarian prime minister must also do everything in his power to make this happen and remove Hungary from the war zone we’re currently in.
Staying with the main topic, some blood-curdling statements are being made. I ask this because you recently participated in a hybrid online conference with European leaders. Statements have been made in various European countries. A French general has said, “If we want to protect the nation, we must accept that we may lose our children, and we must make economic sacrifices.” Operation Plan Germany was recently published, made public by the Wall Street Journal. And we could go on. The term “blood-curdling” is perhaps not an exaggeration. What’s your experience at these conferences and meetings? Is there any change, any shift in the question of war and peace?
When the Digital Civic Circles asked me what I thought about such an anti-war series of events, I told them that it’s never been more relevant. Because I can tell you that the fact is that Europeans want to go to war. Don’t think that the way they think in the West is the same as how we think here. Because, you see, we want peace, a ceasefire and security; but to the west of us, the leaders want to go to war, with the support of the dominant public narrative. I can’t tell you what real people think, but from what I read, there’s a clear desire to go to war. They think that now the Russians can be defeated: that they can be defeated not in Europe but on Ukrainian territory, and defeating Russia would bring advantages. And this is why they support this war – which will, of course, be paid for in Ukrainian blood. First they gave money, then they gave weapons; and now these French and other statements have come out, saying that if it’s absolutely necessary they may even send soldiers. From our perspective this is impossible, isn’t it? So those here in Nyíregyháza, in this sports hall, see people who think that way as not being normal. It would be easy to say that we’re smart and they’re stupid, wouldn’t it? But explaining an opponent’s position in this way doesn’t lead anywhere good. We need to understand why this seems logical to them. Why do they want this? There are two answers to this question. One’s already been mentioned by someone else, so I’ll leave that to the end. But one answer is that this is how people are: it’s about cash, money’s involved. If you have the patience, read the international news and look for reports about France’s recent agreement with Ukraine to purchase one hundred – yes, one hundred – fighter aircraft. Read about the new factories that German arms manufacturers are setting up, and the equipment they’re supplying to Ukraine. Look, if you add it all up, you’ll find huge numbers. And war is also a business. We’ve always known this, we learned it in school – and, believe me, it’s no different today. There’s always the danger that when you embark on a path to war, at the beginning it’s foreign policy makers, national leaders and diplomats who shape things. But as you go deeper and deeper into war, as you spend more and more and it costs more and more, as you become more and more involved, then in come the businessmen and big companies that manufacture weapons, sell them, and make money from them – known in America as the military-industrial complex. And these business circles associated with the military industry are playing an increasingly important role in shaping events. This process is also taking place in Europe at the moment. I sense that large arms manufacturers are exerting ever greater influence on political decision-making. So the first factor is money. The second factor, as someone here has said, is that in Europe, if you lose a war, there are serious consequences – mainly because you have to admit that you miscalculated. Imagine that we were sitting in the Bundestag, the German parliament, and the Chancellor had to stand up and say, “Well, the situation is as follows. To put it politely, we’ve miscalculated. There are stronger expressions for it, but on this we’ve miscalculated: we’ve lost this war. Ukraine has lost 25 per cent of its territory. Ukraine has lost this many hundreds of thousands of people. This much wealth has been destroyed. We’ve given them 170–180 billion euros so far, while you Germans don’t have enough money at home. We gave them all of it. It’s gone. Unfortunately, we didn’t achieve our goal.” Who’s going to say that? And who will say that in April 2022, when the first peace talks were held in Istanbul and an agreement was close, we – the West – prevented the Ukrainians from reaching an agreement, telling them that time was on their side? But it turned out that it wasn’t. We misjudged that. Time wasn’t on their side. Today, they’re in a worse position than if they’d agreed back then in April. Because now there would be a hundred thousand, or I don’t know how many, Ukrainians still alive. They wouldn’t have spent... And they wouldn’t have lost 22 per cent of their territory, but only 10 per cent. Who in France, in the Bundestag, or anywhere else, is going to admit that? In America it’s easy, because those who made that mistake – let’s say they botched it, I’m getting close to the right expression, those who botched it – lost the election and stepped down. Mr. Biden is nowhere to be seen. A new president came in, said, “Well, it was a mistake, his mistake”, and that settles it in America. But what about France and Germany? Think it through! Admitting that this war has been botched and that we aren’t going to continue it would cause an earthquake shaking the foundations and changing European politics. And they’re not yet at the point where they’re forced to admit that. That will come – just like with the migration issue. I’m sitting calmly, which isn’t so easy, because there are twenty-seven of us: twenty-seven prime ministers at European Council meetings. Okay, the Slovaks are standing aside, they’re not confronting me; when we’re in serious trouble they can be relied on, but they’re not going to take bullets for me – which is understandable. Twenty-five are saying one thing, and one person, me, one country, is saying the opposite. And one has to say, “The twenty-five of you are wrong, and we’re right.” It’s not such a simple position. And they’re saying the same. In such a debate, they say, “Dear Hungarians, it’s very good for people to listen to what you think, it’s very good that you’re representing your position, but there are twenty-five of us here.” Or they don’t say it, but they think it. These are the world’s elite, with sky-high egos: “Here we are, with our research institutes, smart ministers and prime ministers. You don’t think that the twenty-five of us are wrong and you’re right, do you?” This is a situation, a negotiating situation that often arises. And now I have only one answer to this, which I didn’t even have at first: “Don’t we remember that this has happened before? Isn’t this déjà vu, my friends? How was it with migration? All twenty-five of you said that it would be good. The Hungarians said ‘no’. Who was right? Who turned out to be right? Maybe not at the time, but who turned out to be right? What are you saying now? You’re saying what we’ve been saying!” So I’m convinced that intellectually the same thing is happening today with regard to the war as happened with regard to migration. That moment isn’t far off, since the Americans are now also saying what we’ve been saying. In Brussels I’m still alone, but with America we’re now two – and it’s a heavyweight, so it counts as more than one when doing the arithmetic. So the situation is better now, and this is what will happen. We just have to be very careful here about what I’d call posture and style. Because even though we’re right, there are only ten million of us, and our GDP is what it is. So when we’re right, we mustn’t express it in that way. So the right posture is humility, modesty and cooperation – not lecturing, but instead cooperation for the future. This is very difficult, because I’d like to say the opposite, of course, but that’s forbidden, so no, no; but if we succeed in this, if we can represent this position with good posture, then as the wind changes, we’ll slowly but surely become increasingly numerous. The Slovaks have arrived. Prime Minister Babiš will soon take office. There’s a new Polish president. The Italian prime minister’s voice seems to be softening, no longer being as harsh as it used to be. I can see that events are taking a turn for the worse on the front line, that the war on the front line cannot be won. I’ll say something about that in a moment, about what the Russian president said yesterday. So we’ll gradually become increasingly numerous, and Hungary will win this debate. When we discussed this with the Russian president yesterday, as part of a discussion that I can’t talk about here, or at least not in detail, he made it clear that the situation on the front line is that there are four or five... There are fortified cities there. I don’t know how closely you’re following events. So there isn’t just one front line: there’s a 1,100-kilometre front line, but from a military point of view the most important and problematic sections of it are up in Donetsk. The Russians have decided to annex the entire Donetsk region. So, looking from the east, in three-quarters of the Donetsk region there are four or five large fortified cities which were reinforced over a period of ten years or so. This is exerting a very serious counterforce. The Russian president also said that yes, it will be very difficult to occupy them, it will require many sacrifices, both from them and from the Ukrainians, but they’ll occupy them. And in terms of military force this will happen, albeit in a grinding war lasting many months, unless Western soldiers are actually sent to the front line – which would carry the risk of a third world war. The Russians say that it would be better if the Ukrainians recognised that this is the balance of forces. It’s true that they’ve been building up fortified cities for ten years or so, but they should withdraw from there, hand over the Donetsk region, build new lines of defence further west, and then an agreement will be concluded with the Americans: the Ukrainians will withdraw, and with the Americans’ guarantee, the Russians will undertake not to go further west than Donetsk. Or, the Russians say, “If there’s no such agreement, in a few months we’ll crush them at great cost and occupy the territory; and, without any agreement, from then on we’ll go as far as we want. Wouldn’t it be better to reach an agreement?” That’s the Russian position. This is very difficult for a Ukrainian to accept, because if your father, brother or son died in a war to defend your country, how can you give up territory that hasn’t even been occupied? So it’s not as simple as saying that the Russians are right or the Ukrainians are right, but rather that everyone has their own point of view, which it’s logical to defend. This is why it’s so difficult to make peace – because if this weren’t the case, if one side had the greater share of the truth, then it would be easy to make peace. But that’s not the case, as I’ve just explained. The truth is spread out: some truth here, some there, a third... And this is why it’s very difficult to find leaders, especially on the Ukrainian side, who would agree to such a peace deal. So I’m speaking about the Ukrainians with great restraint, despite the fact that I believe they’ve made strategic mistakes. I went to see them last summer and told them that time wasn’t on their side. I told them that I knew the American president, that I knew exactly what was going to happen, and believe me, they’d be in big trouble if there was a change of president in America. I told them it would be better if they took advantage of the opportunity then, that I could help them and we could achieve some kind of ceasefire – because as time goes by, they’d find themselves in a tragic situation. They rejected all of this. That’s one thing. And they made other mistakes as well, but I don’t blame them for that – I simply see the very difficult situation they’re in. But in any case, I don’t have to think like the Ukrainians, but like the Hungarians; and therefore it’s in Hungary’s interest – no matter how difficult and complicated the situation may be – to achieve a ceasefire and peace as soon as possible, so that we can escape from the shadow of war in which Hungary finds itself today. I apologise for taking so long, but I just wanted to tell you this so that you can see that I don’t have a heart of stone, and I do have a position or opinion on the Ukrainians, but it’s not influencing me. I understand all the moral, human and other dilemmas that are on the table here. So it’s not as simple as acknowledging a truth and then marching forward. There are a great many moral, dubious, and uncertain situations surrounding this. But I believe that if we choose the right starting point – and the right starting point, since we’re Hungarians, is the Hungarian interest – then the right path is the one we’re currently on. This path also means trying to persuade the Ukrainians that, even though they’re under attack, they should make peace for their own sake, for the sake of Hungary, and for the sake of Europe as a whole.
Thank you very much, Prime Minister. That’s actually the final word. Since we’re in Nyíregyháza, allow me to say a few words about the region – even though there’s no time for a detailed explanation. You’ve told us many times that Nyíregyháza is a successful city, one of the most rapidly developing cities, whose influence can be felt throughout the county. Where does Eastern Hungary stand now in terms of catching up with Transdanubia and the West? We really only have time for a few sentences.
Yes – but no, no, no. This can’t be answered briefly, so since you’ve asked the question, you’ll have to bear with me, as I can only answer it at length. First of all, I have a list for the people of Nyíregyháza: Industrial park 3 billion, western bypass 13, purchase of buses 4 billion, zoo 10.5, sports centre 7 billion, leisure investments 6 billion, small settlements in the area 5.1 billion. These are development funds. As far as Szabolcs–Szatmár–Bereg County is concerned, I’ve looked at the employment statistics, and there are now 50,000 more people in work in your county than there were in 2010, and the unemployment rate has halved. From the business support programmes, the Baross Programme, the Sándor Demján Programme, 50 billion forints have been and will be allocated to the county, 16 billion of this to the city itself. Another 53 billion forints from other competitive tenders will be allocated to supporting large companies. And, according to government decisions, in the next ten years we’ll spend 670 billion forints in this county. These are the figures, just in case anyone wants to argue, so that they have the figures. But there’s more to it than this. When we were first mandated to govern in 1998 and then again in 2010, I ranked the tasks ahead – not only in terms of which were important for the country and which weren’t, but also in terms of which demanded the most from us, the Government, in terms of political performance. Let’s just say that developing Budapest isn’t a challenge is it? It will take off on its own – one just needs to blow a little harder... The fact that the people of Pest don’t appreciate this is another matter, of course, because the figures I’ve read out here should be multiplied by a hundred in Budapest. By a factor of one hundred! So in Budapest alone, more than one trillion forints of investment is coming from state funds today. Here, in Szabolcs–Szatmár–Bereg County, you’d be happy with half that, I think. So anyway, this shows that development and recognition are two different things. Okay, but it’s easy to develop Budapest. Győr isn’t difficult either – it wasn’t in great shape in 1998, but Western Hungary isn’t difficult either. I don’t want to offend the people of Szombathely, but it was difficult to be born in Szombathely, there on the western border, wasn’t it? And so on. Or Veszprém, Székesfehérvár, Győr. In Gömbös’s programme in the 1930s this was a priority industrial development triangle. So there have always been industrial traditions there that are easy to build on. These were the big ones, but I put them to one side. What did I bring forward first? Tatabánya, Dunaújváros, Komló. Well, achieving some development in those cities is quite an accomplishment. And today I can go to each of them and talk to the locals. And there was a separate task, which we call Eastern Hungary. Now, a long lecture should follow – don’t rebel right away – on how, since the First World War, Hungary has been conscious of being a defeated people. One looks at our history books, talks to one’s children, watches our films, reads our poems, all that surrounds us, and it’s clear that for us the 20th century was a century that we lost. This is a problem. Let’s look at Eastern Hungary. The awareness that they were losers is doubly present here. It’s not just that we lost territory, population, raw materials, oil fields, timber, and everything else that’s necessary for the economy in a national context; but it’s also that this is a less developed part of the country, and all the resources over the past fifty to sixty years haven’t gone to the east, but to Budapest and the western part of the country. So those who live here feel that they’re double losers: they’re losers as members of the national community, and they’re also losers in terms of regional development and politics in general. When I was growing up I used to take the train, and if I was travelling from the eastern part of the country, I’d be on what they called the “black train”, on which people went up from Szolnok and from Nyírség to go to work. They didn’t work in their home counties, but over there. And we’re country lads, if I may say so: we let a couple of Pest people into the Government, of course there are people from Budapest in the Government too, but basically we have a government from the provinces. Budapest is the capital of the nation, so it’s still a place we should be proud of; that’s fine, but the task is in the countryside. And the biggest task here was in Eastern Hungary: to put Eastern Hungary on a development path that would allow it to catch up with Pannonia, with the areas on the other side of the Danube. You’re not there yet, Ladies and Gentlemen, you’re not there yet – but the road you’re on leads in that direction. So if you look at the pace of development, at investments, at everything that’s happening, at road construction, at everything you see, it can now only be reversed by very bad government decisions. This path leads upwards, with one investment bringing another, one development bringing with it another. It will go upwards. Believe me, within ten years. And I’m not just talking about Nyíregyháza and Szabolcs–Szatmár–Bereg County: in talking about Hajdúság, and soon Borsod as well. So what we call “Eastern Hungary” is on an upward trajectory. And when you look at your own lives you won’t need to feel like double losers, because we’ll definitely cancel out one of those losses, the one within “Lesser Hungary”. I’ll digress, because nothing can be perfect, and as a result, another division has emerged, which you may feel is less important because it is further away from you. But the fact is that today the country’s development is no longer shaped along East–West lines, but by the relationship between the North and the South. So, by giving a boost to Debrecen, Nyíregyháza and Miskolc, we’ve suddenly created another dividing line that even stretches across Transdanubia – because Baranya isn’t in good shape, and then we can go all the way to Békés. So, now that we’re done with you, if I may say so, the next big programme is already underway: the big programme now is to try to put Southern Hungary on the same track, and we’re working very hard on this. The oft-mentioned BYD project didn’t just fall out of the sky to Szeged: it’s there because we took it there. We’ll continue to do such things, because Hungary must ultimately achieve a state of peace where everyone feels that they have equal opportunities to be part of the country, equal opportunities to be part of the Hungarian nation – and I believe that when this happens, we’ll be able to rid ourselves of a bad legacy. I’m also biased in your favour for two other reasons. One is personal. This isn’t why we’re here, but I’ll mention it anyway. I spent about four years of my life walking out of my dorm room and bumping into Feri Kovács, because he lived across the hall from me. We took many courses together, and I was very happy, even though it wasn’t easy to get along with him. I was very happy that he decided to try to create something here that the Government could join. We all know Feri. He’s not a talkative person, and he’s stubborn, but I think that’s good for you. At present there are a number of investments underway in this region, which are largely due to his stubborn pursuit of his ideas, and I thank him for our cooperation over the past few years. The other thing is that I’ve always liked [the writer] Gyula Krúdy very much – and he was, after all, one of yours. When I was preparing to come here, I looked for a quote that would best illustrate the relationship between someone like me, who wasn’t born in this county, and you. I found the following quote from Krúdy. It goes like this: “Nyírség is a large part of national history. Here, even those whose fathers couldn’t speak Hungarian become wild Hungarians.” This is a very important quote, because I believe that there are two driving forces in Hungarian society, and we must use both of them, and we mustn’t allow them to create an imbalance. There’s an old saying, perhaps originating from Germany, that city air makes you free. This is true. And there’s another saying, let’s not dwell on the question of authorship, which goes like this: country air makes you Hungarian. And we need both things: the freedom that city air brings, and the Hungarian identity that country air brings. There have been times when we were in trouble – when the civic, national, Christian community was in trouble, and I personally was also in trouble, in a political sense. We’ve lost enough times, haven’t we? Several times! And I can tell you that when we were in trouble the question was, who can we count on? You were first. So we knew that in Szabolcs–Szatmár–Bereg County we had such strong bridgeheads, such communities, such local leaders that we could safely rely on them in times of defeat, and that we could start again from here. As you know, the Reformed Church is organised on the basis of large families, not to say clans. I remember being here not so long ago when we buried Pastor Kund Kötöny Sípos, and there at the funeral were all the people with whom we started again after the 2002 election. They were all local people. I have to tell you that there’s a special relationship between the civic, national, Christian national political forces and your county, which has been tested by war, tested by elections, tested by defeats, and which has endured. And I’m certain that we can only win the April election if we win every seat here in your county.
Prime Minister, Krúdy once wrote something along these lines: What is missed in the moment, cannot be brought back even by eternity. Let us hope that this is the moment when we can say that the state of peace that applies here and also to the economy, as you’ve just explained at length, will be realised in the near future. Thank you very much for accepting our invitation. We look forward to welcoming you back to Nyíregyháza.
Thank you very much.